The Stir the Pot Question of the Day!!

[pdiddy]

I agree with what Earthling said. Weight isn't an issue for me when the trails are hard. It's when you get in some fluff and the sled wants to lean to the outside that you have to add extra effort to redirect it. As far as it's effect on acceleration - could care less.

 

[Mills]

The weigh of any sled is supported by the springs in the suspension. Control of this weight is done through the springs and valving in the suspension. All of the suspension part weight at the ground-end of the spring is unsprung weight and about 1/2 of the suspension part weight at the chassis-end of the springs is unsprung weight. Unsprung weight is not controlled by the shock valving or spring and has an effect on the handling of the sled along with suspension geometry. I see very little difference in unsprung weight between 4-stroke and 2-stroke sleds so the unsprung weight should not be the issue. It is the spring rate and valving in the shocks to control the sprung weight that is the big difference. The 4-strokes are heavier so the spring/valve setup is going to be different to account for the total weight, center of gravity, roll center as well as the inertia in roll, pitch and yaw. Any good shock/suspension tech that understands this and can adjust for it can make any 4-stroke handle like its 2-stroke brother. Acceleration/decceleration of the two sled types is a whole other conversation.

 

[cannondale27]

The weigh of any sled is supported by the springs in the suspension. Control of this weight is done through the springs and valving in the suspension. All of the suspension part weight at the ground-end of the spring is unsprung weight and about 1/2 of the suspension part weight at the chassis-end of the springs is unsprung weight. Unsprung weight is not controlled by the shock valving or spring and has an effect on the handling of the sled along with suspension geometry. I see very little difference in unsprung weight between 4-stroke and 2-stroke sleds so the unsprung weight should not be the issue. It is the spring rate and valving in the shocks to control the sprung weight that is the big difference. The 4-strokes are heavier so the spring/valve setup is going to be different to account for the total weight, center of gravity, roll center as well as the inertia in roll, pitch and yaw. Any good shock/suspension tech that understands this and can adjust for it can make any 4-stroke handle like its 2-stroke brother. Acceleration/decceleration of the two sled types is a whole other conversation.

To a point and then cog and inertia take over. As long as strong enough lighter is always better especially since suspension can also be made to accommodate the lighter weight.

 

[VX1R]

The weigh of any sled is supported by the springs in the suspension. Control of this weight is done through the springs and valving in the suspension. All of the suspension part weight at the ground-end of the spring is unsprung weight and about 1/2 of the suspension part weight at the chassis-end of the springs is unsprung weight. Unsprung weight is not controlled by the shock valving or spring and has an effect on the handling of the sled along with suspension geometry. I see very little difference in unsprung weight between 4-stroke and 2-stroke sleds so the unsprung weight should not be the issue. It is the spring rate and valving in the shocks to control the sprung weight that is the big difference. The 4-strokes are heavier so the spring/valve setup is going to be different to account for the total weight, center of gravity, roll center as well as the inertia in roll, pitch and yaw. Any good shock/suspension tech that understands this and can adjust for it can make any 4-stroke handle like its 2-stroke brother. Acceleration/decceleration of the two sled types is a whole other conversation.

Very well said Mills. With a thorough understanding of the whole skid and the effects of making either component changes and/or small adjustments you can make significant gain in the ride and handling.

 

[VX1R]

To a point and then cog and inertia take over. As long as strong enough lighter is always better especially since suspension can also be made to accommodate the lighter weight.

Totally agree. It's interesting to speculate on what's over the horizon.

 

[Sasquatch]

My Apex is Fat and so am I! We complement each other! All four strokes are Fat, the Crosstour I looked at is as Fat as my Apex! All this concern over weight, yes as has been said I ride my sled I don't carry it! I blame Ski-Doo!

 

[03RX1-ER-LE]

I have said it often, so bear with me again,I tell the ‘weight guys ‘ riding TRAIL with me, “do you realize your sled weighs more than mine when you’re full of fuel and I am near empty,”.
How can you stand it?
Can you even notice the fuel weight when your full?

As our late TYer Turk used to say, where I am from we ride our sleds on the trail we don’t carry them.
I am sure in the deep and mountains it’s a bigger issue.

My 2 cents
Yamadoo

Exactly we are in the flat land region with lots of well maintained/groomed (most of the time) trails. We are riding our sleds not carrying them and can ride a few hundred miles in a day with a smile we cant wipe off of our face.
Out east/west mountains where they spend all day in the deep riding all around the same few mile area from where they stage, then lighter might mean something and good for them, at least when the motor blows it wont have to be towed very far back to the trailer.
For those who ride flat land, and boondock, I wish they would stop the boondocking and endangering our trails. Every weekend I ride I see off trail riding going on even right by a sign that says stay on the trail! WHY???? Please go to the mountains or your own property to do this.
It is not only a problem on leased land and pissing of those owners, in the state/federal lands it is also happening. There are fresh seedlings where land was logged and looks open and inviting, it has been replanted for regrowth and damaged.
For the person sidehilling on a trail with banks on the side, they dig up the soil and cause erosion. Lets all be vigilant and preserve the awesome trail system we have all around the great lakes region. Now down off my soap box once again.

 

[earthling]

To a point and then cog and inertia take over. As long as strong enough lighter is always better especially since suspension can also be made to accommodate the lighter weight.

COG and Momentum. Inertia you only have to overcome once and then all other calculations are about momentum. The bottom line is that mass/energy won't be denied and a heavier sled will require more energy -- everywhere. Lighter, tighter, and balanced are the targets, geometry is most often a series of compromises based on the design targets. If you don't control the former (Weight, weight distribution, weight balance) then you end up compromising geometry to make up for it. The rest (spring rates, dampening, etc) are just the mechanics (levers) used to achieve or as a byproduct of the desired geometry.

 

[maim]

last trail ride i did we dropped and rode 100 mi north ish from the drop point and rode the same trail back. beginning of the day all was smooth and awsome. end of the day you could tell where all the braap jockeys went through as there was 1' mouguls at some points all the way across the trail. came across a crew of light weight sleds (mostly doos) going home riding in front of me. they where standing up on their 137 legnth sleds in that stuff. i went past them without my butt leaving the seat on my apex and proceeded to open the gap on them. the rx war and phazer rtxtx did the same.

i will keep riding my tank of a sled and making all those light weight sled guys go "how'd he do that?" on and off trail as i want to.

 

[LouTurbo]

Light sleds are great if they dont have reverse or if you get stuck. The Sidewinder turns so friggin well with pilots.

 

[kinger]

Weight BALANCE is more important then total weight but the magazines and marketers will not let you know that. I love in some of the mountain forums they bring in full WET sled (full of fuel, tools, etc) and take the weight. The 4 strokes are always heavier for sure but its usually by about the weight of a tank of fuel. Maybe a little more if you take a stock apex but all the new yamacat stuff is pretty dang close. Viper's non -turbos are getting real close to 2S maybe 30-40lbs. See my garage thread on weight and weight balance. I finally nailed it with around 160lbs of ski pressure (Same as 2S pro) with me on it makes for one fun sled. The rest of the weight rides on the skid. It was night and day better then the MPI apex so that is how I came to my own conclusion on weight balance.

 

[earthling]

Weight BALANCE is more important then total weight but the magazines and marketers will not let you know that. I love in some of the mountain forums they bring in full WET sled (full of fuel, tools, etc) and take the weight. The 4 strokes are always heavier for sure but its usually by about the weight of a tank of fuel. Maybe a little more if you take a stock apex but all the new yamacat stuff is pretty dang close. Viper's non -turbos are getting real close to 2S maybe 30-40lbs. See my garage thread on weight and weight balance. I finally nailed it with around 160lbs of ski pressure (Same as 2S pro) with me on it makes for one fun sled. The rest of the weight rides on the skid. It was night and day better then the MPI apex so that is how I came to my own conclusion on weight balance.

Allow me to read into what you are saying. Weight balance is a function of application specific requirements (e.g. trail vs mountain) coupled with (and probably compromised by) the physical distribution of weight. The physical distribution of weight is a hard thing to overcome. If you have a weight forward design, no amount of suspension tweaks will stop the sled from wanting to nose over in a jump, given enough time in the air, even when it feels otherwise balanced on a trail. You can mitigate the issue but you cannot overcome the physics easily, the question is does it really matter in most conditions. All things being equal, a trail (or a mountain) is an ever changing environment and personal ability and familiarity with the tool (the sled) will allow you to compensate for that lack of design perfection even if you don't realize it. Conversely, having perfect weight distribution and design is no guarantee that you the average rider can and will take advantage of it. A good tool in the right hands will do a better job than the perfect tool in the wrong hands. Having said that, we can only hope that the next design is both lighter and 'better'.

 

[kinger]

You can mess with the physical weight dist like what I did with the apex, moving fuel back, lighter hoods, batteries, etc. What happened with the apex was it was SO easy to remove weight from the tunnel area, suspension, seat, and Exhaust was like 70lbs. This actually hurt the sled and moved more weight to the front, then people blamed that on the 'heavy' 4S engine. What I am saying is that adding a 4 gallon can of gas to the rear makes it handle more like a lighter 2S because you set the balance to match a 2S.

I took 4 scales and put one under each ski and the rear arms in the skid. The Sidewinder is heavier on the front AND lopsided on the exhaust/turbo side. I'm going to get a lighter exhaust as part of my flash package and that will help that. Also gutting the factory air intake under the hood and going with a CAI. While it would be easy for me to also replace the rear mounted battery with a lithium its counter productive and it just means I need to remove the same 10lbs off the front which is getting harder and harder after the hood and exhaust stuff. If I rode with a jerry can of fuel then yes swap out the battery but always keep that balance in mind. For me the very simple formula is with me sitting on the sled have each ski hit close to 160lbs. This is a perfect position for trail handling and 'lightweight' flick ability that is getting closer to 2S feel. Its also educational to stand on the sled, move around and watch the scales. What I found with the SW is that the mass is more centralized then my apex and the slightest shift in my weight has a big impact on the weight transmitted to the skis. I think this is a good thing. In the recent rare freak heavy dumps of snow I was playing in the ditches of DEEP snow and the SW is amazing in deep snow compared to my lighter weight apex. The only difference was the steering post is about 4" farther forward then my apex. Very cool how those small changes really make the sled handle well even though its 'fat' HAHA.

 

[cannondale27]

You can mess with the physical weight dist like what I did with the apex, moving fuel back, lighter hoods, batteries, etc. What happened with the apex was it was SO easy to remove weight from the tunnel area, suspension, seat, and Exhaust was like 70lbs. This actually hurt the sled and moved more weight to the front, then people blamed that on the 'heavy' 4S engine. What I am saying is that adding a 4 gallon can of gas to the rear makes it handle more like a lighter 2S because you set the balance to match a 2S.

I took 4 scales and put one under each ski and the rear arms in the skid. The Sidewinder is heavier on the front AND lopsided on the exhaust/turbo side. I'm going to get a lighter exhaust as part of my flash package and that will help that. Also gutting the factory air intake under the hood and going with a CAI. While it would be easy for me to also replace the rear mounted battery with a lithium its counter productive and it just means I need to remove the same 10lbs off the front which is getting harder and harder after the hood and exhaust stuff. If I rode with a jerry can of fuel then yes swap out the battery but always keep that balance in mind. For me the very simple formula is with me sitting on the sled have each ski hit close to 160lbs. This is a perfect position for trail handling and 'lightweight' flick ability that is getting closer to 2S feel. Its also educational to stand on the sled, move around and watch the scales. What I found with the SW is that the mass is more centralized then my apex and the slightest shift in my weight has a big impact on the weight transmitted to the skis. I think this is a good thing. In the recent rare freak heavy dumps of snow I was playing in the ditches of DEEP snow and the SW is amazing in deep snow compared to my lighter weight apex. The only difference was the steering post is about 4" farther forward then my apex. Very cool how those small changes really make the sled handle well even though its 'fat' HAHA.

I agree. Front to back is about perfect even compared to a Cat 800. Very neutral. Can just coast over a jump and fly perfect. Left to right isn't bad either. But the one thing very different is the hieght of the wieght. Namely a big head with cams and gears in it. That wieght is what you feel when sled is tilted. It wants to find the ground or low point. Sometimes I think with CVT demanding lower Rpms to be efficient that we would be better off with a flathead with cams block and valvtrain down instead of up. As mostly a trail rider it's only bothered me maybe twice in some very rough uneven trail by Pinestump alongside the road. Constant left right jumping. Switched with buds 800 and relaxed! Also sidehilling in some very deep snow. Hanging off like monkey and kept heading down when wanted to go straight. Finally had to stop or hit woods. 2st had no trouble going right around and up out. Me. Stuck bad.

 

[74Nitro]

I agree. Front to back is about perfect even compared to a Cat 800. Very neutral. Can just coast over a jump and fly perfect. Left to right isn't bad either. But the one thing very different is the hieght of the wieght. Namely a big head with cams and gears in it. That wieght is what you feel when sled is tilted. It wants to find the ground or low point. Sometimes I think with CVT demanding lower Rpms to be efficient that we would be better off with a flathead with cams block and valvtrain down instead of up. As mostly a trail rider it's only bothered me maybe twice in some very rough uneven trail by Pinestump alongside the road. Constant left right jumping. Switched with buds 800 and relaxed! Also sidehilling in some very deep snow. Hanging off like monkey and kept heading down when wanted to go straight. Finally had to stop or hit woods. 2st had no trouble going right around and up out. Me. Stuck bad.

Be nice if that engine was down lower. There is a lot of space beneath that engine.