TRIP TO MAINE RUINED BY POOR WORKMANSHIP ( LONG STORY)

[JERSEYJOE]

I just got back from Maine. Mixed emotions but generally good stuff. First I need to say that Maine has some awesome trails, some that rival Quebec on a good day. Not a lot of traffic, no annoying law enforcement presence BUT the trail markings are poor in many spots. I rode out of Phillips Maine which is about 20 miles South of Rangely. The State trail map has no fuel locations and the trail intersections are vague at best. Grooming was better that I find in my home state of NY but not as good as Quebec. The people awesome. Now on the DRAMA that made this trip interesting:

I travelled with my good buddy Tommy. We opted to use his trailer since mine was older and in need of new decking. He had just had new tires installed in preparation for the trip. Loaded up Sunday from my Tug Hil, NYl camp and headed to Maine. In New Hampshire about 80 miles from Phillips ME the lug nuts worked loose and we lost a trailer wheel. Had to drag it off the road and thanks to an extremely nice New Hampshire gentlemen was able to leave the trailer and one sled in his yard. Loaded my Apex into my F-150 and continued on to Maine. Got there and met the rest of the crew. Took one of their trailers and headed 80 miles back to New Hampshire in a blinding snow storm to pick up the other sled and trailer. We loaded the sled into the F-150 , flipped the damaged trailer on to another open trailer and headed back to Maine, once again in a freaking blizzard. Got to camp in Phillips only to find the hot water was not working, so no shower.... At least we were all there. Bought a replacement hub at the SkiDoo dealer in Rangely ( awesome nice guys). fixed that

NEXT DRAMA:

I have a 2006 Apex GT with about 9000 miles on it. A couple of weeks ago while riding in NY I noticed that the exhaust was just starting to get loud. I know from the last time that the donuts need replacement. Elsewhere in this forum I posted that I had no time to do this myself so I had the dealer do it. Cost me $380.00 including oil change. So I get ot Maine with fresh exhaust donuts. Ride the first day with no issues only that my buddies are telling me that it sounded " funny". On the second day about noon we stop for lunch. Shortly there after my Apex sounded like a Harley with straight pipes. We turned back and went to camp. I called my dealer who had little to say. Took the sled to the Yamaha dealer in Rangely ( Rev it Up Yamaha ). They took it apart and informed me that I needed 2 pipes which they did not have, and were not available. He was super nice and only changed me a minimal fee to reassemble it. He did not speculate as to why this happened within 100 miles of donut repair.
I was lucky to borrow a POS sled to ride the rest of the week but it handled so poorly it was torture. On the way home Sunday I dropped the sled at the dealer in NY. Waiting to hear their reply.

Talked to a few people in the know. Their theory makes sense. The pipes on these machines fail when the donut wears and the pipe starts to vibrate due to the worn donut. The loose pipe vibration is what causes the titanium pipe to break at the flange. The only possible explanation is that the NY dealer did not secure the clamps tight enough which would explain why is sounded " funny" the first day, and eventually allowed the pipes to fail. I know my NY dealer is usually on the ball, and it they noticed damaged pipes then they had it apart they would have replaced them. The fact must be that the pipes were not damaged at the time they replaced the donuts.

Any thoughts?

 

[Frozenstiff]

I don,t think I would be so quik to blame the dealer. I have an 07 Apex, and one of my original titanium pipe flages broke this winter as well, causing an exhaust leak. Yamaha realized they had a problem with these lightweight titanium pipes, and the replacements are heavier, stainless pipes. As I,m planning on keeping my sled forever, I spent a bit extra to get a beautiful set of stainless y pipes from MBRP up here in Ontario Canada. Had them in 1 day, they fit perfect, and sound great. Awesome people to deal with.

 

[Snowmobileaddict]

You are right, the Y-pipes are fragile pieces of titanium and they crack very easily if they are rattling around at the flex-pipe joint.

That being said, you may never know what really happened. Either:

1) The pipes were slightly damaged before you had the donuts replaced (micro cracks) and then broke completely when the new donuts were installed and with the flange clamps were tightened to spec
Or
2) The servicing-dealer did not tighten the clamps to spec after the new donuts were installed, and the y-pipes rattled themselves to death.

If the y-pipes were visibly damaged at the time the donuts were replaced, they should have caught it and recommended replacement at that time as well.

 

[yox185]

Just to play devils advocate, is it possible the pipes were well worn and maybe stress fractured from years of use? Tightening them up with new donuts could have not allowed them to move as much as they could with worn donuts. This could have been the final nail in the casket and they simply broke. Just an alternate theory. One thing is for sure titanium is to brittle for this application.

 

[actionjack]

Just to play devils advocate, is it possible the pipes were well worn and maybe stress fractured from years of use? Tightening them up with new donuts could have not allowed them to move as much as they could with worn donuts. This could have been the final nail in the casket and they simply broke. Just an alternate theory. One thing is for sure titanium is to brittle for this application.

This sounds like a good theory and explains my set of circumstances. I bought my Attak 2 weeks before an 1100 mile trip. The next summer I took her all apart and found like new donuts and a cracked flange. Already had new donuts so I bought a takeoff Ti header and put her back together. 2 seasons later donuts and clamps are tight but I have a mid-pipe leak to find.

 

[JERSEYJOE]

UPDATE

As expected my dealer in NY is telling me that this is not their fault, just a coincidence. Called Yamaha Corporate and explained my theory. Let's see what happens. I am not buying it. Unless they were total morons and assembled it with damaged pipes. I got less than 100 miles before both pipes broke.

 

[NY AttakGT]

I just wnet through my donuts pre-season (which I do every year) and they all looked great. 1,200 mile later, notice I hear an exhaust leak under sled up in tunnel. Took it apart and 1 donut was (just about) totally gone, and clamp was loose and spinning (didnt damage pipe though, as I caught it in time). Not sure what made this 1 donut go so quick as the others looked fine.

Another point,my Y pipes usually do not come off when I change donuts or do an inspection. So maybe your dealer just removed what was left of the old donuts, put the new donuts on without ever taking the Y pipes off for inspection? You can slide the new donuts on by just sliding the exhuast back and not totally removing exhaust. I usually just feel around the flanges with my fingers to make sure I dont feel any cracks and obviously visual inspection of what I can see.

Additionally, those exhaust clamps stretch out due the constant heating and cooling they are exposed too and I find that even torqued all the way down that the clamps are still loose sometimes, since they have stretched over time. When that happens, you have to remove the clamp and grind a little off the spacer so the clamps will close tighter. Some say not to do that as it makes the clamp close out-of-round, since you are only affecting one side....I have never had an issue with doing this in the multiple times I have done this. I would lean towards this being your issue as the clamps stretched and were not tight (after being properly torqued) and eventually wore through the flanges.

 

[JERSEYJOE]

THEORY

I agree 100% with your assessment. The clamps actualy bottom out apparently in an attempt by Yamaha from being overtightened. They should be filed if they are to be reused. The tech could have either 1. not tightened them in which case the pipe would rattle and fail or 2. tightened the clamp but it still allowed the joint to be loose. This would account for the " sounds funny" comment I got the first day.

I think it is a conclusion that if the gaskets are new, and the clamps are tight, then the pipes do not rattle and will not fail. Funny how Yamaha now makes these out of stainless. I put a set in my buddies Attack at the end of last season and his is perfect after a season of hard riding.

 

[THKSNOW]

The dealers that have replaced my donuts (3 different dealers) would not even consider using the old clamps- they all insisted on new clamps because the heat takes it's toll on them. I wonder why your dealer didn't use new ones, I also wonder what Yamaha reccommends, new ones or re-use the old ones...

 

[zdc_Larry]

My friends and I just got back from Jachman Maine. Plenty of snow up there and they groom every other night. We used to goto Rangely and the loop trail around the town was always torn up by noon time. So we decided to go a little more north.

 

[CaptCaper]

So have we learned what to do on these Apex's to get the most mileage out of Donuts and or pipes? Change them every year including clamps ? and or every 2K miles? I'm curious because I just bought a 07 Attak with 821 miles OEM totally. My old 07 got about 4 k or so before the donuts,pipes busted.
I did the work myself that time and the last one at 8500 miles. I used copper donuts wit old clamps filed down. Within 200 miles after I developed a leak. I have been running it all season. PIA .
But then others have had the pipes cracking at the V and other places. Donuts can't be affecting that out come I wouldn't think.

 

[CaptCaper]

So have we learned what to do on these Apex's to get the most mileage out of Donuts and or pipes? Change them every year including clamps ? and or every 2K miles? I'm curious because I just bought a 07 Attak with 821 miles OEM totally. My old 07 got about 4 k or so before the donuts,pipes busted.
I did the work myself that time and the last one at 8500 miles. I used copper donuts wit old clamps filed down. Within 200 miles after I developed a leak. I have been running it all season. PIA .
But then others have had the pipes cracking at the V and other places. Donuts can't be affecting that out come I wouldn't think.

 

[yamaha convert]

So have we learned what to do on these Apex's to get the most mileage out of Donuts and or pipes? Change them every year including clamps ? and or every 2K miles? I'm curious because I just bought a 07 Attak with 821 miles OEM totally. My old 07 got about 4 k or so before the donuts,pipes busted.
I did the work myself that time and the last one at 8500 miles. I used copper donuts wit old clamps filed down. Within 200 miles after I developed a leak. I have been running it all season. PIA .
But then others have had the pipes cracking at the V and other places. Donuts can't be affecting that out come I wouldn't think.

I have had copper donuts for 3500 miles so far without the clamps coming loose and or any breakages. I replaced my donuts at 2000 miles on both my sleds regardless of their condition. My pipes were in excellent condition and the factory donuts were only just starting to fail. I used the factory clamps and did not file down the spacer as it will make the clamp pull down unevenly and favour one side. I did however put a flat washer as well as a spring washer under every bolt on the clamp to spread the head load under the cap screw as they have such a narrow footprint on the clamp.
I pulled the clamps of my sled to look at the copper donuts after 2000+ miles with them on my sleds and they are leaking somewhat. I posted pics on another thread.
I think the best thing to do is to replace the OEM donuts with the copper ones as early as possible so as you have the header flanges where the donut sits in as good a condition as possible. When using the copper donuts there is no need to initially replace the clamps as the donut itself is slightly wider than the OEM units and as such the clamp exerts more pressure on the joint by virtue of this fact.
The problem with this new joint in my opinion is the clamp isnt thick enough to exert enough pressure on the joints with the copper donuts. The OEM donuts are far more maleable and the factory clamp is more than thick enough to clamp them properly. They fail because the graphite donut fails and or the bolts come loose. With the copper donuts the factory clamp just cant pull the joint together tight enough up against the copper to seal it properly as its just not thick enough and the V of the clamp just spreads apart as its clamping. Its still a reasonable joint but not one that seals 100%. I looked at making clamps that were thick enough to hold the joint together tightly but they would work out to nearly $30 each. Seeing as most people dont seem to mind their donuts joints leaking somewhat, there doesnt seem to be much demand for a better clamp.
So essentially Id replace the factory donuts before they fail at low miles with the copper units and factory clamps They shouldnt crack for a while. So long as the donut clamps stay tight, the flexible joint of the cylinder head should take up any vibration from the engine and keep the pipes from cracking prematurely.

 

[CaptCaper]

Sorry about the double post..clicker problem. Can't seem to find a delete tab for it.

Convert
So your saying the least of two evils is to use the copper donuts with new factory clamps with spring washers. If using OEM donuts you would have to change them often. Every year it seems.

 

[yamaha convert]

Sorry about the double post..clicker problem. Can't seem to find a delete tab for it.

Convert
So your saying the least of two evils is to use the copper donuts with new factory clamps with spring washers. If using OEM donuts you would have to change them often. Every year it seems.

There is no need for new clamps with the Sled Toys donuts. The donuts are thicker - wider and so they wedge into the V of the clamp tighter, in effect giving you greater clamping force from the factory clamps. Still not enough to seal against the copper properly but better than using the graphite donuts that just break down over time.
Ultimately until we start hearing from people with more miles on the copper donuts we wont really know if there are other issues that might be related to using them.