Sled Solutions said:
when i changed my viper up from a 121" to a 136" it totally changed everything with the suspension and suspension geometry. you really need to take a weekend and do some suspension tuning, it will help greatly.
jds1000
Expert
Sled Solutions said:
Right now the limiter strap is at the factory setting. I set the entire sled at the very lightest spring and shock setting because this is My Wifes sled and she only weighs 120 lbs. I weigh a hundred lbs more than her so maybe the reason the front feels so light is because My fatass on the seat is keeping the front end up. I'm thinking the Pilot skis are giving the sled the light feel up front. She rode it around the house and a few feilds yesterday and thought it felt lighter upfront than her 05 Rev but also thought it steered really good. I'm going to wait till the riding conditions get better before any changes but right now heavy steering won't be an issue. Like I said before if anything I would like to lower the front of her sled and put a little more weight on the skis for more aggressive handling and a little less ski lift but this isn't My sled and I will wait for her input before I do anything.
I hope it is ok to quote Yamaha Sled talk here!
This was a good link during the summer!!
July 25, 2007
Careful what you ask for!
Jon and I tend to ’spitball’ a lot of ideas around here, often focused on building a better mousetrap. One thing I have learned over the years, when dealing with our engineers, it is best to let them figure out how to design the trap. It is our job to communicate to them, everything they need to know about the mouse.
An interesting example of how this can go, is currently a hot topic with some potential FX Nytro riders. The Totallyamaha forum has a couple of lengthy threads based on the need for Nytro with a 136 Ripsaw track. At first blush, this is a no-brain’er. The Attak and Rage (now LTX) models featured this track and are very well accepted in the market. The longer track offers greater traction in loose conditions and by virtue of a longer wheelbase, bridges the bumps with less pitching than a traditional 121 inch. There are some other pros and cons but that kinda sums it up for my purpose here.
After hearing the demand, our first reaction is to meet with the engineers and request a 136 x 1.25 Ripsaw for the Nytro. If we really do our homework, collect lots of data, make multiple colored slides with graphs and charts and photographs, reference the feedback from customers then deliver the presentation with all the passion and conviction we can muster up , everyone will be convinced to drill some holes in the Nytro tunnel, pull the rear-end guts out of an Attak, add a little piece of aluminum to extend the snow flap and voila, the FX Nytro LTX will be born… Careful what you ask for.
Step back a little. Consider; the Nytro is a purpose built machine, designed with different targets and character than the original RX platform. The balance points, CG and moment of inertia are all quite different which our engineers understand all too well. Perhaps a better way would be to describe what the expectations (of the rider) are for a Nytro based LTX without insisting on a particular component part or setting. What if we simply focused on a sled that had improved traction without compromising the ability to drive around a corner.? A sled that would help make the bumps you gun down late on a Sunday, the kind that transform your favorite trail into a back breaking washboard, simply go away? A sled you could pull off into a meadow, shoulder-deep in powder without worrying if someone is around to help pull you out? ( okay maybe thats pushing it a little, its always nice to have a buddy along when playing in the powder )
Hypothetically, if we were to ask instead, for a sled based on understanding riders needs and define where the lines of compromise are then let engineering and testing decide what is the best way to achieve it, they come up very well come up with a mono-shocked Nytro using a 136×1.25 Ripsaw. Then again it could have a modified twin shock skid with a new track to compliment it, perhaps 16 inch wide or perhaps 145 or maybe 132 long, inch and quarter, inch and a half, Ripsaw, Hacksaw, Ice scritcher… The point is; we are not necessarily tied to an ‘off the shelf’ part. If we insist on a 136′er thats what we’ll get, there may very well be a better choice but you’ll never know. What I’m hearing is ‘build me a long track sled that does a good job both on and off trail. We must also be careful how we ask!
Another example, on a much larger project scale relates to the Phazer and its use of a 14 inch track. Scott has asked me why we chose a 14 inch’er especially on the Mountain Lite (see comments under my last post). I could write a small novel on the PZ development project. The original ‘concept’ Phazer was, well lets say ‘unique’. If you think the current Phazer is a departure from the norm you would be totally blown away by the prototype we rode several years ago now. The concept we originally pitched was a snow-going YZ of sorts. A lightweight 4-stroke that had agility, extreme handling and an image to match. A machine that would have the gen Y kids selling their snowboards on Ebay and trading their roof-rack adorned Civics for Tacoma’s.
I’ll take a big step forward now to where the sled morphed into something more traditional. We had decided on the 14 inch wide track to help achieve the agility and ‘fun-to-ride’ targets for the Phazer, this also allowed for a more narrow tunnel (light weight and rider mobility). We had room to squeeze one more variation into the plan given our available time and resources, problem was, we needed two. The Venture was required to cover the two-up market and after testing the proto’s it was apparent a mountain version would be a lot of fun for boon-docking in the powder. After a lot of manpower juggling and discussion (things like engine power and track speed), our engineers decided we could have both models provided we worked with the FX base chassis to develop the Mountain Lite. The Venture went on to receive a new wider tunnel and bulkhead to accept the 15 and 16inch track of the Multi-Purpose (not sold in the USA) plus the bigger gas tank (tunnel width allows more capacity). In the end the Phazer Mountain Lite caught us all by surprise as it outsold all other variations in Canada and has proven itself a very worthy snowmobile.
There was quite a bit more to this story which perhaps I can visit again in another post if you like. Just be careful what you ask for cr
This was a good link during the summer!!
July 25, 2007
Careful what you ask for!
Jon and I tend to ’spitball’ a lot of ideas around here, often focused on building a better mousetrap. One thing I have learned over the years, when dealing with our engineers, it is best to let them figure out how to design the trap. It is our job to communicate to them, everything they need to know about the mouse.
An interesting example of how this can go, is currently a hot topic with some potential FX Nytro riders. The Totallyamaha forum has a couple of lengthy threads based on the need for Nytro with a 136 Ripsaw track. At first blush, this is a no-brain’er. The Attak and Rage (now LTX) models featured this track and are very well accepted in the market. The longer track offers greater traction in loose conditions and by virtue of a longer wheelbase, bridges the bumps with less pitching than a traditional 121 inch. There are some other pros and cons but that kinda sums it up for my purpose here.
After hearing the demand, our first reaction is to meet with the engineers and request a 136 x 1.25 Ripsaw for the Nytro. If we really do our homework, collect lots of data, make multiple colored slides with graphs and charts and photographs, reference the feedback from customers then deliver the presentation with all the passion and conviction we can muster up , everyone will be convinced to drill some holes in the Nytro tunnel, pull the rear-end guts out of an Attak, add a little piece of aluminum to extend the snow flap and voila, the FX Nytro LTX will be born… Careful what you ask for.
Step back a little. Consider; the Nytro is a purpose built machine, designed with different targets and character than the original RX platform. The balance points, CG and moment of inertia are all quite different which our engineers understand all too well. Perhaps a better way would be to describe what the expectations (of the rider) are for a Nytro based LTX without insisting on a particular component part or setting. What if we simply focused on a sled that had improved traction without compromising the ability to drive around a corner.? A sled that would help make the bumps you gun down late on a Sunday, the kind that transform your favorite trail into a back breaking washboard, simply go away? A sled you could pull off into a meadow, shoulder-deep in powder without worrying if someone is around to help pull you out? ( okay maybe thats pushing it a little, its always nice to have a buddy along when playing in the powder )
Hypothetically, if we were to ask instead, for a sled based on understanding riders needs and define where the lines of compromise are then let engineering and testing decide what is the best way to achieve it, they come up very well come up with a mono-shocked Nytro using a 136×1.25 Ripsaw. Then again it could have a modified twin shock skid with a new track to compliment it, perhaps 16 inch wide or perhaps 145 or maybe 132 long, inch and quarter, inch and a half, Ripsaw, Hacksaw, Ice scritcher… The point is; we are not necessarily tied to an ‘off the shelf’ part. If we insist on a 136′er thats what we’ll get, there may very well be a better choice but you’ll never know. What I’m hearing is ‘build me a long track sled that does a good job both on and off trail. We must also be careful how we ask!
Another example, on a much larger project scale relates to the Phazer and its use of a 14 inch track. Scott has asked me why we chose a 14 inch’er especially on the Mountain Lite (see comments under my last post). I could write a small novel on the PZ development project. The original ‘concept’ Phazer was, well lets say ‘unique’. If you think the current Phazer is a departure from the norm you would be totally blown away by the prototype we rode several years ago now. The concept we originally pitched was a snow-going YZ of sorts. A lightweight 4-stroke that had agility, extreme handling and an image to match. A machine that would have the gen Y kids selling their snowboards on Ebay and trading their roof-rack adorned Civics for Tacoma’s.
I’ll take a big step forward now to where the sled morphed into something more traditional. We had decided on the 14 inch wide track to help achieve the agility and ‘fun-to-ride’ targets for the Phazer, this also allowed for a more narrow tunnel (light weight and rider mobility). We had room to squeeze one more variation into the plan given our available time and resources, problem was, we needed two. The Venture was required to cover the two-up market and after testing the proto’s it was apparent a mountain version would be a lot of fun for boon-docking in the powder. After a lot of manpower juggling and discussion (things like engine power and track speed), our engineers decided we could have both models provided we worked with the FX base chassis to develop the Mountain Lite. The Venture went on to receive a new wider tunnel and bulkhead to accept the 15 and 16inch track of the Multi-Purpose (not sold in the USA) plus the bigger gas tank (tunnel width allows more capacity). In the end the Phazer Mountain Lite caught us all by surprise as it outsold all other variations in Canada and has proven itself a very worthy snowmobile.
There was quite a bit more to this story which perhaps I can visit again in another post if you like. Just be careful what you ask for cr
jds1000
Expert
08NitroRTX said:
OK I can understand what is being said here but what about the Nytro MTX with its long track?? I haven't read any complaints at all about the handling of the MTX. I'm thinking that longtracking this sled is not the problem but maybe the skis and suspension settings are all wrong.
COMPLETE DIFFERENT rear skid and the MTX guys are NOT asking it to do as we are!
It also still has transfer rods and look how many are already wanting to change their rear skid to something different...
It also still has transfer rods and look how many are already wanting to change their rear skid to something different...
tek
Newbie
I would never set a sled to be toe-in. It should be toe-out.
Toe-in will make that thing very hard to handle.
Toe-in will make that thing very hard to handle.
skyboz
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
One thing that won't be easy is that there are not many 136's out there!!! Hopefully a lot of the adjustments being made to the 121's can help those with a 136! About the steering, I was actually a little surprised how well it turned with no ski lift. Giving her a little throttle is a different story. This is where tweaking the weight transfer is going to help out a ton!!
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Slydog skis need to be toed-in! Paul, I can't give you a guide line on rear skid adjustments yet as I haven't had our 136" out on the snow yet. I did notice the standard FX Nytro rides alot more harsh out of the box than a FX Nytro RTX does. It will take some time dialing in the front and rear suspensions again.
Thanks Srxspec! I was hoping for a follow up from you on this thread. Care to elaberate on why or at least your theroy why these skis should be toe in and a measuremnt how much toe in from what distance from ski bolt? I'll take a PM if you care NOT to dicuss it in an open form?
tek
Newbie
I'm curious too.
DITCHBANGER
Expert
the mtx has a good skid,but the shocks have basically no adjustment,the shorties get these nice clickers with rezzies,and the mtx has 2 basic non adjustable shocks,im only 145lbs and the skid works very good for my weight,but i want better shocks,what i pd for the zx2 is about what i would pay to upgrade the mtx with good shocks that can be played with..only problem is my zx2 is not here yet..08NitroRTX said:
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I will chime in regarding the Slydogs as well. Ski savers and toe IN (Contrary to what I always understood toe angle should be set at) transformed my Attak. It's now is a point and shoot sled. I hope your Nytro responds the same.
I guess I'm still trying to figure this out! Slydog have been around for over 4 seasons right? I don't think I have been under a rock for most of this time (or I like to think I haven't) and this is the very first thread I have heard of this... I even google search it and NOTHING!!
I am NOT saying it's NOT true!!! I just would like to hear the theroy or the reasoning behind why this ski is changing how we have been setting up sks for 30 years? There have been many skis in the last 5-10 years that have had agressive keels what gives?
Any info or a link to help answer question would be great!
I am NOT saying it's NOT true!!! I just would like to hear the theroy or the reasoning behind why this ski is changing how we have been setting up sks for 30 years? There have been many skis in the last 5-10 years that have had agressive keels what gives?
Any info or a link to help answer question would be great!
Removed User
Extreme
I just put C&A RZR's on my RTX, it made it harder to steer then the stock. I'm used to it tho, I had super stiff suspension and C&A's on my 04800x. Wha t did you ride before?? Somthing with pilots or precision's? or an non rider forward sled?? Thats the difference. Atleast when I point it in a direction it goes that way.
If you want a rough trail sled with stiff suspension, rider forward etc, then be prepared to always be holding the bars. You can't expect to point and shoot like a rev with sihty pilots/precisions.
I love my Nytro.
If you want a rough trail sled with stiff suspension, rider forward etc, then be prepared to always be holding the bars. You can't expect to point and shoot like a rev with sihty pilots/precisions.
I love my Nytro.
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