Yamaha R&D PLEASE READ and DELIVER for 2013.

Ruckus said:
Yep, a 100+hp Phazer with a better rear skid would be awesome. There is 50 lbs to be saved on the Phazer with ease.
Lets face it though, if 4 stroke is the direction Yamaha is going to continue with, there's no way they will be able to come near a 2T in weight. The motors are bigger, have more rotating mass, they can't spin backwards so you need a reverse mechanism, you can't pull them over so they need a starter and battery, to make them comparable to 2T of the same cc's they need to be boosted, which adds more weight and kills the fuel economy. So right off the bat you have 30-50 lbs more sitting over the skis. The rear exiting exhaust forces the gas tank to sit high above the tunnel and further increases the center of gravity and we all know how much ice it adds to the rear end. They are going to have to either go back to 2T or re-engineer and lighten the entire sled to accommodate the heavy engine. I really can't see it happening. Now, if they offered a multitude of sleds on one basic platform with a choice of 2T, 4T and boosted 4T then they would definitely have a winning combination. As it stands, these sleds will always perform better on a hard surface. They don't seem to be engineered to deal with the realities of soft snow. Someone tell me if I wrong.
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I don't agree with what your saying.
To be competitive Yamaha can use their 4stroke, there is a market for it even in the mountian's. But they need a completely different line of thinking and a devoted mountian R&D team.
Proof is in the pudding, A/C dominates the western market as a mountian sled builder, ahead of BRP for a reason. The best mountian R&D team in the industry. Check out the 1100 A/C and compare to the Nytro, there is no doubt at first glance the 1100 scream's "MOUNTIAN SLED".
If that's not a wake up call for Yamaha, i guess the mountian guy's are out of luck.
 
lund said:
Well i suspect they are not very good at their job or are NOT mountian rider's. Probably both.
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That is a pretty big assumption from what seems like someone that doesn't know how Yamaha works.

lund said:
Computer simulation's just doesn't cut it. Anyone with any real life experience as a backcountry rider would without a doubt say that this design is NOT suitable for mountian's and were not doing our customer's a favor by selling it as one.
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You talking the 2012 sleds or the 08's? IMO, the 2012's solve a lot of the problems from before. Better running boards, better rear suspension, better track, better front suspension, better gearing, better hand warmers, better wheels, better drivers... They have done a lot on the 2012's..

lund said:
The biggest problem i see is Yamaha is building a UNIVERSAL chassi (Nytro) and adapting it for the application. Eigther by lengthening the track, changing the shock's ect, ect. That doesn't work.
The mountian segment has SPECIFIC needs and mountian rider's are extremely demanding. So a trail sled cannot be converted to a mountian sleds and be great.
Mountian sled's have to have their own specific design, something Yamaha is not doing.
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I disagree. I think this is something that Yamaha actually needs. Combining chassis design even more so, that way you can bring higher technologies into the manufacturing process while utilizing economies of scale to keep costs under control. A lot of the benefits to mountain riders also benefit trail riders.

Some of this talk is funny. People saying all these things about yamaha, how out of touch they are... Why did we all buy one.. lol.

One another note, I would like to see Yamaha do some drive train changes. There is a lot of weight there that they could loose with some new stuff. That and maybe a cast front subframe that moves the front suspension forward and allows for a better angles steering post.
 
lund said:
I don't agree with what your saying.
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I think you just did. You don't want a lighter machine that's boosted? And for those who aren't operating at 10,000 ft, a 2T is a better choice because you can save 50-100lbs and still have gobs of power, plus the ability to throw it around. My Brother who is a mechanic for another brand has an 800cc that with the addition of an Aaen pipe and the removal of the battery and starter weighs less than 450 lbs and has over 170 hp...How much would it cost to do that with a Nytro, for example? $5k on boost and 2K on a rear skid. Throw in new front A arms and skis, relocate the steering and you have a nice, powerful good handling sled that still weighs more than 500 lbs. I dunno guys, its a tough one. On one hand, as someone mentioned, the "demographic" is not concerned with weight and lets face it, selling a sled to someone who leisurely rides it compared to someone who is hanging off it in the mountains is a safer bet for the manufacturer. Logically, Yamaha is doing the smart thing by eliminating aggressive riders.
 
HartleRacing said:
i ride aggressively. granted my RX-1ton is not built for it, but i still do..
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Wrong. The Rx-1 is an aggressive snowmobile, the Nytro not so much. The Nytro is more for rough bumps where high speed is not possible, and where aggressive speed is possible gives up too much potential with the overly tall machine and mid performance engine.
 
4x4 said:
Wrong. The Rx-1 is an aggressive snowmobile, the Nytro not so much. The Nytro is more for rough bumps where high speed is not possible, and where aggressive speed is possible gives up too much potential with the overly tall machine and mid performance engine.
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Interesting definition of aggressive.
 
The public is doing the R&D for them... all they have to do is open their eyes. Skids, tracks, running boards, steering relocate, rollover valve, new front suspension, boost, gas tank. Plain and simple a stock Nytro DOESN'T work at elevation in the mountains. The only thing that counter acts weight is horesepower, plain and simple. Untill they figure this out they will continue to loose customers.
 
4x4 said:
HartleRacing said:
i ride aggressively. granted my RX-1ton is not built for it, but i still do..
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Wrong. The Rx-1 is an aggressive snowmobile, the Nytro not so much. The Nytro is more for rough bumps where high speed is not possible, and where aggressive speed is possible gives up too much potential with the overly tall machine and mid performance engine.
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you make a good point, but my personal definition of aggressive, is being able to fly down a trail at 60+mph while rolling over 3foot or taller moguls and occasionally getting off trail and smashing through a ditch or two. in that aspect of "aggressive" my sled does not suit my personal riding style. although i love being able to wack the throttle and seeing the happy meter fly past 100mph in the blink of an eye, and hold it all the way across a lake. My ideal sled would be an IQR with an apex motor under the hood. if that helps to define my style of an aggressive ride?
 
Sled Dog said:
For a mountain sled I somewhat agree with you. For the guys who like to cruise on trails or open fields (they probably buy more sleds) the weight is a mute subject and in fact is better for stabilty and comfort. Durability and quality does equal more weight and for the trail riders durabiltiy and reliabilty means either walking, being towed or not. When I am going through ungroomed fields and hitting drifts I am glad my sled is heavier to take the pounding and keep the sled more stable instead of launching. The weight between comparitive 4S HP sleds is very minimal as well. If Yamaha wants to compete in the mountain sled it is going to have to go to 2S for now until they figure out how to get the weight down for the mountain riders.
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Weight is never a moot subject. Yamaha would have better sales in the midwest if their sleds weren't so fricking heavy. For off-road use light is right. The Nytro sure as heck isn't more stable because it is heavy, in fact it is unstable because it is top heavy, among other issues.

Why can't a 4 stroke be the same weight as a 2-stroke? I would have never believed it with dirt bikes in the 80's yet here we are. The other three OEM sleds are built light. Yamaha's are not and their chassis aren't even that durable. In fact they have the weakest suspension components and chassis of any of the OEM's. A Ski-doo XP chassis looks absolutely fragile. But, they hold up. I didn't believe they would but now that my buddy is racing the Iron Dog on an XP and I've had the opportunity to learn about the sled my opinion has changed. The last time Yamaha had a competitive chassis was with the trailing arm Vmax.

The Nytro and Phazer show some really innovative thinking when it comes to sled construction but they could be so much better. If Yamaha copied what people are doing to lose weight from the factory we'd see some real improvement.
 
HartleRacing said:
my personal definition of aggressive, is being able to fly down a trail at 60+mph while rolling over 3foot or taller moguls and occasionally getting off trail and smashing through a ditch or two.
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That's my definition of what I do on the way to the good riding. Its impossible to argue the downside of these sleds with some people (not referring to you specifically, HR). There is a saying: Knowledge is the enemy of Faith. Speaking in terms of snowmobiles, unless you experience what other machines are capable of you will never know the Truth. I refer the reader to The Allegory of the Cave by Plato.
 
Some very good points being made here and I would like to say that my Apex is a helluva fun sled. After tearing into some things though it seems like Yamaha likes to kind of overthink things. Just to do an exhaust donut job you have to take apart about 20 things just to get under that gas tank. So it would seem to me if they could simplify some of these components and loose the twenty billion fasteners that hold them on it could help get the weight down.
my .02
 
AKrider said:
Sled Dog said:
For a mountain sled I somewhat agree with you. For the guys who like to cruise on trails or open fields (they probably buy more sleds) the weight is a mute subject and in fact is better for stabilty and comfort. Durability and quality does equal more weight and for the trail riders durabiltiy and reliabilty means either walking, being towed or not. When I am going through ungroomed fields and hitting drifts I am glad my sled is heavier to take the pounding and keep the sled more stable instead of launching. The weight between comparitive 4S HP sleds is very minimal as well. If Yamaha wants to compete in the mountain sled it is going to have to go to 2S for now until they figure out how to get the weight down for the mountain riders.
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Weight is never a moot subject. Yamaha would have better sales in the midwest if their sleds weren't so fricking heavy. For off-road use light is right. The Nytro sure as heck isn't more stable because it is heavy, in fact it is unstable because it is top heavy, among other issues.

Why can't a 4 stroke be the same weight as a 2-stroke? I would have never believed it with dirt bikes in the 80's yet here we are. The other three OEM sleds are built light. Yamaha's are not and their chassis aren't even that durable. In fact they have the weakest suspension components and chassis of any of the OEM's. A Ski-doo XP chassis looks absolutely fragile. But, they hold up. I didn't believe they would but now that my buddy is racing the Iron Dog on an XP and I've had the opportunity to learn about the sled my opinion has changed. The last time Yamaha had a competitive chassis was with the trailing arm Vmax.

The Nytro and Phazer show some really innovative thinking when it comes to sled construction but they could be so much better. If Yamaha copied what people are doing to lose weight from the factory we'd see some real improvement.
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Does weight make a real difference to trail riders who ride groomed trails? Does weight make a real difference to a sledder who rides open feilds and ungroomed trails at a safe speed? Does weight make a difference to someone who uses their sled for work? The answer to these questions is NO. In fact the weight for the work sleds is wanted and needed. Weakest suspension components come on your reaching now the only thing that ever failed on my suspensions was a RA cable and wheel bearings after 6500 miles. I believe you seem to think that only mountain riders with mountain sleds are considered sledders and that should be Yamaha's main concern building a mountain sled. That said with the Big Iron Shootout its still Yamaha that rules that part of the mountains with boosted sleds. Come to think of it Yamaha's boosted sleds rule at drag races and top end speed as well.
 
It's not that groomed trail riding is not "real" snowmobiling, it's that groomed trail riders represent the largest segment of the market. It's unfortunate that mountain/backcountry riders have to ride an overweight top heavy design if they want to continue to ride the brand. Ask a VK professional owner what happens if you get one stuck. That's why I have a good old VK 540. It's technologically inferior but a hell of a lot better in soft snow or crosshilling or breaking trail.
 
I don't notice the weight that much trail riding, actually I think it makes the ride smoother in slightly rough trails, i just feel they need a couple design changes, a one piece tunnel, more compact lighting and smaller more comfy seat would help with weight, but like the triples of old i feel to keep the 4cyl is going to be a problem if you want to reduce weight you need wider and taller bulkhead to house it, unless yamaha can almost roll it right back in to the bottom of the sled, then of course where does the jackshaft go ect maybe an improved diamond drive idea, I don't know for sure but i do know I need SNOW
 
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