06 Apex bar vs. 08 Nytro Bars - Height Difference Please

[RADNYTROFX]

yes, i want to put the 06 apex bars on my nytro so the hand warmers will be hot! does anyone know the height difference? if they are more than an inch shorter, is anyone putting a longer riser on their nytro to make up the difference?


thanks

Brett

 

[mtdream]

have you tried shooting foam inside the bars? that works WONDERS for us out west...take a can of spray foam shoot it inside the en of the handle...it insulates, and MAN does it make it hot!!!! plus it helps witha little bit of the vibration...

 

[arteeex]

I posted the following a while back and killed the thread. Can someone tell me WHY the '06 bars and grips would make a difference or, even why the bars need to come along with the grips? (Is it the bar hooks?)

Has anyone measured the resistance value of the Apex grips?

**********************

The equation driving the output of the heater elements is; P (Watts) = V^2 (volts) / R (resistance). In this equation the only variable we have to manipulate is R, the resistance of the heater elements. Yamaha controls the voltage.

For example: assume a maximum voltage supply of 14V. If the resistance of the grip heater is 15 Ohms the output will be 13W. Drop the resistance to 7.5 Ohms and the output doubles to 26W. If the resistance in the Apex grips is lower by at least 50% then this swap makes sense. Otherwise, it seems like a lot of effort for little return.

************************

I'd love to have functional heaters on the Nytro but the engineer in me says this swap is not going to solve our problems.

Thanks.

 

[RADNYTROFX]

i guess for 2 bucks i will start with the foam ;-)

ya, i have read a bunch of things, i dont know what to do for sure? some dealer said that when you hit the brakes on the nytro, the hand warmers shut off. someone tried it and said they get hot. someone else said running the warmers 1 bar from the top setting helped alot. and someone else said to buy the yamadont hot grips. #*$&@, i dotn know, guess the foam is a start though.

thanks

Brett

 

[Topgun]

i guess for 2 bucks i will start with the foam ;-)

ya, i have read a bunch of things, i dont know what to do for sure? some dealer said that when you hit the brakes on the nytro, the hand warmers shut off. someone tried it and said they get hot. someone else said running the warmers 1 bar from the top setting helped alot. and someone else said to buy the yamadont hot grips. poop, i dotn know, guess the foam is a start though.

thanks

Brett

Well , up here in Canada, the foam DOES NOT WORK. Running the warmers one bar from the top, makes them even colder then cold and just letting the sled sit turns the grips to ice. The 06 bars are a huge improvement but there is a 1 inch diff .

 

[RADNYTROFX]

actually i was going to tilt my stock bars back a bit for better cornering so those 06 bars might just be the nuts!!!!!

 

[Superman]

The Std FX Nytro and Nytro RTX are different. The bars on the RTX have a taller adjustable riser and straighter designed bar. The Std Nytro bars have shorter fixed riser and a bigger bending or taller designed handlebar. The 06 Apex bars fall in-between on the bend, They are taller on a Nytro RTX and shorter on the std. FX Nytro.

 

[Zoggan]

OK, I guess I have to ask. Why do you have to go as far as swapping the whole bar package? Why can't you just install the 06 grips??? Is it the bar material?

 

[Superman]

The 06 bars were not 1 pc.. They had removable hooks. You can't put the 06 grips on the 08 bars. The 06 grips were the best feeling grip Yamaha has ever put on a sled. I hate the the raised rubber lines on Yamaha grips. The 06's may not have put out a ton of heat but the grips themselves were 10x's better when it came to the way they felt on your hand. Why the 06 grips make more heat on the 08's? I don't know as I have not hooked mine up yet.

 

[powderlites]

Handlebars

I have run stock bars on short track Nytro and then changed to 06 Apex then to handlebar kit updated 07 bars for apex and work great.
I like the mountain bar and little bit higher with 1.5" spacer/bolts on my short track.
Not to crazy about mountain nytro handlebars!
Way to far back so climbing hills feels like you can't control it and flop it over easy.
Handlebars are about 4"ahead on mine.
http://www.powderlites.com

 

[yamy07]

I posted the following a while back and killed the thread. Can someone tell me WHY the '06 bars and grips would make a difference or, even why the bars need to come along with the grips? (Is it the bar hooks?)

Has anyone measured the resistance value of the Apex grips?

**********************

The equation driving the output of the heater elements is; P (Watts) = V^2 (volts) / R (resistance). In this equation the only variable we have to manipulate is R, the resistance of the heater elements. Yamaha controls the voltage.

For example: assume a maximum voltage supply of 14V. If the resistance of the grip heater is 15 Ohms the output will be 13W. Drop the resistance to 7.5 Ohms and the output doubles to 26W. If the resistance in the Apex grips is lower by at least 50% then this swap makes sense. Otherwise, it seems like a lot of effort for little return.

************************

I'd love to have functional heaters on the Nytro but the engineer in me says this swap is not going to solve our problems.

Thanks.

If I remember correctly - the 06 grips were originally wired in series. When everyone complained they weren't hot enough, Yamaha came out with an update kit with new bars & an adapter harness to connect the 06's wiring to the updated (parallel wired bars). This combo was marginal also, then someone tried the old bars with the update parallel harness. While I've forgotten most of my Ohm's Law - the net effect was much higher current (due to the lower resistance of the series grips now being in parallel ) like 4 times as much - and finally - hot Grips.
There's much debate as to the long term ability of your ECU to put out so much more current than it was designed for. As long as you use your grips on low, you may be OK - but your taking your chances with a spendy part (ECU).
Measuring a set of grips(06 update bars) I got gave me the following result - each grip on it's own measures 7.7 ohms for 15.4 ohms in series. In Parallel they measure about 4.4 ohms total. 14 volts at 15.4 ohm = 12.73 watts while 14 volts at 4.4 ohms =44.55 watts . I assume the 08's factory harness is designed for parallel grips - putting on the 06 bars would in effect lower the resistance the same way. I using 14 volt as an example - I'm not sure what the actual voltage is since the newer Models use a pulse width modulated voltage to change the heat output.

 

[LoneViper]

Per the Nytro service manual, the resistance on the grips is 6.1 to 7.4 Ohms wired in parall. The Vector grips always worked, and per the Vector manual the grips are 1.5 to 1.8 ohms wired in series.

I realise the Vector grips won't make the bend on the handlebar but I wonder if the Nytro electronics would handle the Vector grips. Can the ECU be that different?

I was told by the dealer the Nytro's grips won't work below 4000 RPM, I think they also cut out if the brake lite comes on.

Let's apply some Ohms thery to this sonarieo.

 

[arteeex]

Thanks for the input on the grip specs. I realize that we've commandeered the thread here and I'd be happy to start another if anyone else wants to join in on this discussion.

Based on the averages of the resistance values you’ve provided the Vector grips are going to deliver approximately 4 times the output of the Nytro grip at the same voltage.

However, as you noted the electrical supply to the grips is interrupted (I’ve confirmed this) below 4000 RPM. The shop manager at my dealer said this is to preserve power for the fuel injection system. I wouldn’t expect that this alone would be a problem as 4-grand is about where the clutch engages so there’s not a lot of riding done at that RPM. The grips and throttle on my sled never get more than just slightly warm to my bare hands. Sometimes I am unable to sense any heat from the grips at all. This makes me think that the voltage delivery scheme is funky beyond the imposed 4000 RPM threshold. Maybe (probably) the full available voltage is never delivered to the grips and throttle or it’s cycled at a rate where equilibrium is established well below a useful/comfortable level.

I don’t know what it means for the ECU to run higher output (lower resistance) grips. My guess is that the ECU operates relays capable of controlling the current demands for the grips and other systems on the sled making it somewhat isolated from the load of higher output grips. The question then might be how close are we to exceeding the performance limits of the electrical supply if we slapped on the Vector grips.

I’d cut the hooks off in a heartbeat and go with standard grips if I could be assured of warm hands and a happy ECU.

Perhaps Mr. Yamaha could provide some clues.

 

[LJ 452]

For a DC circuit:

Parallel Circuit.
Amps= Volts / Ohms
Total resistance (ohms)= (resistance 1 X resistance 2) / (resistance 1 + resistance 2)

Series Circuit.
Amps= Volts / Ohms
Total resistance (ohms)= (resistance 1 + resistance 2)

3.4 Ohms for Stock Nytro Grips
0.8 Ohms for Vector Grips in Parallel

4.2 Amps for Stock Nytro
17.5 Amps for Vector Grips in Parallel

4X the original designed current.

Obsviously you would not run them a full power, but you would have to go through the cycle to turn them down or off. I'm not sure on the Nytro but on the Apex the power comes directly from the ECU, no relay's. This is because the way the power is applied, some sort of pulse. I think when my S.E. comes I'm going to put the scope on the feeds to see whats going on, I should be able to print it out and post it.

Summer is taking way too long!!!

 

[arteeex]

With the voltage drop across the first grip, a series circuit doesn't make sense to me for this application. I'd go with parallel or even discrete circuits.

As you've shown (and I double checked) a 4X increase in the current would likely stretch what I'd call a safety factor in my field.

If you're right about the pulse delivery scheme we would only be guessing towards a solution with any change in the resistance of the grip heaters. There seems to be more than we/I know going on in the ECU.

I remember reading about the early Nytro prototypes being setup to run warm coolant (a contradiction in terms?) through the handle bars. That's a solution that I can appreciate more than the magic of electricity.

Maybe if we keep griping about the problem our friends at Yamaha will take note and solve this issue for us. Soon.

Thanks for your input.