09 handwarmer resistance

[Goddo]

Just some information for you guys....

I did quite a bit of investigation into the grips on my '06 Nytro. This same problem reared it ugly head way back then. To make a long story short, the '06 grips were cold, the '07 update kit wasn't any better ... the solution was to use the '06 grips wired in the '07 fashion. i'm sure many of you have seen the 40 or 50 page thread on this topic.

This situation will be no different on your FX Nytros. And when you measure the voltage at different RPMs, or settings you will find no change. I measured the voltage output using a Fluke meter (kinda-like an oscilliscope). The voltage actually never changes with different settings. The voltage is always 12V. What does change is the signal. It is a PWM waveform ... that simply turns on/off at different rates for different settings.

Think of it this way ... turn a light switch on, then quickly turn it off. Then wait a while and repeat. This is like a low setting on the warmers. For a higher setting the on time of the light is longer, and the off time is shorter. This is what creates more heat.

Now, if you want to add a resistor to get more current, and thus increase the wattage ... your thinking along the right path. Putting a resistor in parallel with the grips will drop the total resistance, and allow more current to flow, thus increasing the wattage. HOWEVER ... you will not get any more heat. This is because you will have increased the total current draw, not the current draw through the grips themselves.

So here are your options ... Option 1 - change out to the '06 grips offered by Yamaha if you can find them. Your newer sleds will already be wired correctly for them to work. Option 2 - get some aftermarket grips that have a higher wattage.

Trust me on this analysis .... my day-job is Electrical Engineer.

Now that's an informative post...Thanks GT. The worst part of that post is it doesn't provide much in the way of options. Either way it involves changing grips.

 

[Vector1]

I contacted Hot Grips support and ask them to join the TY site and help us out with this issue, so let see if they do join in. They said they use to supply Yamaha with grips upto about 4-5 years ago, thats when they worked.

 

[Timeline]

Sorry to ramble on but I have never been to the Hot Grips site until Blueballer posted the link. They have it figured out for you. On the accessories page on the bottom right they have a PWM controller that should work with all of our systems. Wired to our grips supplied by our regulator/ rectifier which is DC voltage we may be able to use our existing grips. The magneto puts out AC voltage that is converted to DC by the rectifier.
Apex grips are 1.83 ohms-2.24 ohms at 20c or 68f. Magneto is capable of 14v, 35amps/490 watts at 5000rpm. Rec/reg controls it at 14.1-14.9 volts/35 amps able to withstand 40v.
When I get some time I will purchase this and test it. Report back when it's done. Peace out.

http://www.hotgrips.com/heat_controller.php


Maybe this should be posted in the Apex thread,feel free moderators.

That controller is basically doing what your ECU is doing - PWM. Why add it when it's already there?

Much easier/cheaper to do the math and calculate what size resistor you'll need to limit the current going through your ECU. We know it's rated at approx. 4 amps, I'm just trying to size the proper resistor to keep it happy.


Whatever route you decide, Good luck!

My idea is not to go through that expensive fusible link called an ECU and use a separate supply.
Gade-thrasher said as I said before adding a resistor will not get you more heat.
My thought was maybe the Hot Grips PWM is greater then the ECM puts out as in a higher frequency. More on time for a longer duration as G-T says. A Hot Grips tech may be able to answer this.
Keep the ideas coming. Open discussions are great.

 

[BLUEBALLER]

Just some information for you guys....

I did quite a bit of investigation into the grips on my '06 Nytro. This same problem reared it ugly head way back then. To make a long story short, the '06 grips were cold, the '07 update kit wasn't any better ... the solution was to use the '06 grips wired in the '07 fashion. i'm sure many of you have seen the 40 or 50 page thread on this topic.

This situation will be no different on your FX Nytros. And when you measure the voltage at different RPMs, or settings you will find no change. I measured the voltage output using a Fluke meter (kinda-like an oscilliscope). The voltage actually never changes with different settings. The voltage is always 12V. What does change is the signal. It is a PWM waveform ... that simply turns on/off at different rates for different settings.

Think of it this way ... turn a light switch on, then quickly turn it off. Then wait a while and repeat. This is like a low setting on the warmers. For a higher setting the on time of the light is longer, and the off time is shorter. This is what creates more heat.

Now, if you want to add a resistor to get more current, and thus increase the wattage ... your thinking along the right path. Putting a resistor in parallel with the grips will drop the total resistance, and allow more current to flow, thus increasing the wattage. HOWEVER ... you will not get any more heat. This is because you will have increased the total current draw, not the current draw through the grips themselves.

So here are your options ... Option 1 - change out to the '06 grips offered by Yamaha if you can find them. Your newer sleds will already be wired correctly for them to work. Option 2 - get some aftermarket grips that have a higher wattage.

Trust me on this analysis .... my day-job is Electrical Engineer.

I hate having to explain things to engineers - they always pretend to understand things. lol - Just kidding

Go back and read exactly what I'm doing and it might make more sense.

If you didn't use a true RMS meter, your readings will be bunk. I'm not adding a resistor to increase current flow - I'M TRYING TO REDUCE IT!!!

I hate to tell you, but the reason the 06 grips work in parallel is because they are wired to produce over 178 WATTS!! That's the reason people can't run their grips at more than 3 or 4 bars. Let that sink in for a minute.

signed - Electrical Engineering Technologist.

 

[ruffryder]

Some very good information here! Excellent responses. This is the first I have heard about the handwarmers being served by a PWM source from the ECU... it is very interesting. I guess the only way to increase the heat output of the handwarmers is to use ones that have a higher power rating and thus a lower resistance rating.

Seems going too low with resistance could possibly harm the ecu from too much power. How did handwarmers get so complicated?

On another note, anyone know the difference between three wire high and lows, and two wire high and lows?

I assume that a two wire high and low has a resistor put in on the low side, and is removed from the circuit on the high side. In this case the handwarmer is heated from the same element. For the three wire, I assume that there are actually two elements on the handwarmer. One element (with higher resistance) is used for the low, while the other element (with lower resistance) is used for the high. Or, the two elements are equal, but only one is run for low, and both are run in parallel (equivalent resistance decreased) for high?

Anyone know this for sure?

 

[arteeex]

My REV has the three wire configuration. Obviously one wire is a return leg. The other two go to different elements in the grips and the two elements have different resistance values. The voltage on each of two source wires is the same.

The two wire units take a detour thru a resistor for the low setting before going on to the grip.

 

[BLUEBALLER]

Sorry to ramble on but I have never been to the Hot Grips site until Blueballer posted the link. They have it figured out for you. On the accessories page on the bottom right they have a PWM controller that should work with all of our systems. Wired to our grips supplied by our regulator/ rectifier which is DC voltage we may be able to use our existing grips. The magneto puts out AC voltage that is converted to DC by the rectifier.
Apex grips are 1.83 ohms-2.24 ohms at 20c or 68f. Magneto is capable of 14v, 35amps/490 watts at 5000rpm. Rec/reg controls it at 14.1-14.9 volts/35 amps able to withstand 40v.
When I get some time I will purchase this and test it. Report back when it's done. Peace out.

http://www.hotgrips.com/heat_controller.php


Maybe this should be posted in the Apex thread,feel free moderators.

That controller is basically doing what your ECU is doing - PWM. Why add it when it's already there?

Much easier/cheaper to do the math and calculate what size resistor you'll need to limit the current going through your ECU. We know it's rated at approx. 4 amps, I'm just trying to size the proper resistor to keep it happy.


Whatever route you decide, Good luck!

My idea is not to go through that expensive fusible link called an ECU and use a separate supply.
Gade-thrasher said as I said before adding a resistor will not get you more heat.
My thought was maybe the Hot Grips PWM is greater then the ECM puts out as in a higher frequency. More on time for a longer duration as G-T says. A Hot Grips tech may be able to answer this.
Keep the ideas coming. Open discussions are great.

Yamaha goes through that expensive ECU right now!! with no fuse!! only 4 amps though. If you wire up some 06 apex bars, it'll be closer to 12 Amps. Again, if I just hook up the HOTGRIPs in parallel, it'll be close to 9 amps - too high!!! Add two- 4 ohm resistors to bring the current back down to approx. 4 amps and you can now run your toggle up to 10 bars - without fear of: cooking your ECU, having somebody else ride your sled and cook your ECU.

The only thing that's gonna be cooking on my sled will be my toasty hands!

Got my hotgrips today - too bad I leave for Hay Days tonight.

 

[ruffryder]

My REV has the three wire configuration. Obviously one wire is a return leg. The other two go to different elements in the grips and the two elements have different resistance values. The voltage on each of two source wires is the same.

The two wire units take a detour thru a resistor for the low setting before going on to the grip.

Are you sure that the three wire has different resistance values? It looks to me like they are the same, and the equivalent resistance decreases because the two elements are run in parallel? At least that is what it looked like on RSI's website with the warmers shown.....

 

[Turtle]

Just some information for you guys....

I did quite a bit of investigation into the grips on my '06 Nytro. This same problem reared it ugly head way back then. To make a long story short, the '06 grips were cold, the '07 update kit wasn't any better ... the solution was to use the '06 grips wired in the '07 fashion. i'm sure many of you have seen the 40 or 50 page thread on this topic.

This situation will be no different on your FX Nytros. And when you measure the voltage at different RPMs, or settings you will find no change. I measured the voltage output using a Fluke meter (kinda-like an oscilliscope). The voltage actually never changes with different settings. The voltage is always 12V. What does change is the signal. It is a PWM waveform ... that simply turns on/off at different rates for different settings.

Think of it this way ... turn a light switch on, then quickly turn it off. Then wait a while and repeat. This is like a low setting on the warmers. For a higher setting the on time of the light is longer, and the off time is shorter. This is what creates more heat.

Now, if you want to add a resistor to get more current, and thus increase the wattage ... your thinking along the right path. Putting a resistor in parallel with the grips will drop the total resistance, and allow more current to flow, thus increasing the wattage. HOWEVER ... you will not get any more heat. This is because you will have increased the total current draw, not the current draw through the grips themselves.

So here are your options ... Option 1 - change out to the '06 grips offered by Yamaha if you can find them. Your newer sleds will already be wired correctly for them to work. Option 2 - get some aftermarket grips that have a higher wattage.

Trust me on this analysis .... my day-job is Electrical Engineer.

I hate having to explain things to engineers - they always pretend to understand things. lol - Just kidding

Go back and read exactly what I'm doing and it might make more sense.

If you didn't use a true RMS meter, your readings will be bunk. I'm not adding a resistor to increase current flow - I'M TRYING TO REDUCE IT!!!

I hate to tell you, but the reason the 06 grips work in parallel is because they are wired to produce over 178 WATTS!! That's the reason people can't run their grips at more than 3 or 4 bars. Let that sink in for a minute.

signed - Electrical Engineering Technologist.

Yep - I understand completely what you are talking about
The '06 grips were originally wired in series. The '07 update wires them in parallel. But the parallel resistance of the '07 setup is only marginally lower than the series setup of the '06 grips. But putting the '06 grips in parrallel greatly reduces the resistance ... which is why they get so hot.

Adding a resistor in parallel with the grips will reduce the resistance of the entire system, and thus increase the current flow of the entire system, and increase the wattage of the entire system. But, the current through the grips themselves will not change, and thus the wattage of the grips will not be increased.

Taking the original series setup and changing it to a parallel setup will increase the current flow through the grips, and increase the wattage output. But putting another resistor in parallel with the grips will not increase the current flow through the grips. The only way to increase the wattage at the grips is to somehow increase the current flow through them.

An idea I was working on, but never toyed around with is a transformer. My thought was to use a transformer to step the 12V PWM signal up to around 16V. I think this would bump the current flow through the grips to get a more comfortable heat output. .... What do you think of this?

 

[ruffryder]

Is the only reason for the PWM signal so that the ECU can control the handwarmer grip easier? Seems like it too me..

 

[arteeex]

Ruffryder

I'm sure this is the case on my REV for both the grips and throttle. Other manufacturers may use a different scheme.

I know the 2-wire aftermarket systems have a big fat resistor between the low position and the heater element to cut the voltage and thus output.

It seems to me more complicated to isolate the two heater elements so they will operate selectively (one and then both) on one wire through a switch if they are in a parallel configuration as you described. In my head both heater elements would always be connected in this construction. But I’m a ME, not an EE so it’s completely possible that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

 

[BLUEBALLER]

Just some information for you guys....

I did quite a bit of investigation into the grips on my '06 Nytro. This same problem reared it ugly head way back then. To make a long story short, the '06 grips were cold, the '07 update kit wasn't any better ... the solution was to use the '06 grips wired in the '07 fashion. i'm sure many of you have seen the 40 or 50 page thread on this topic.

This situation will be no different on your FX Nytros. And when you measure the voltage at different RPMs, or settings you will find no change. I measured the voltage output using a Fluke meter (kinda-like an oscilliscope). The voltage actually never changes with different settings. The voltage is always 12V. What does change is the signal. It is a PWM waveform ... that simply turns on/off at different rates for different settings.

Think of it this way ... turn a light switch on, then quickly turn it off. Then wait a while and repeat. This is like a low setting on the warmers. For a higher setting the on time of the light is longer, and the off time is shorter. This is what creates more heat.

Now, if you want to add a resistor to get more current, and thus increase the wattage ... your thinking along the right path. Putting a resistor in parallel with the grips will drop the total resistance, and allow more current to flow, thus increasing the wattage. HOWEVER ... you will not get any more heat. This is because you will have increased the total current draw, not the current draw through the grips themselves.

So here are your options ... Option 1 - change out to the '06 grips offered by Yamaha if you can find them. Your newer sleds will already be wired correctly for them to work. Option 2 - get some aftermarket grips that have a higher wattage.

Trust me on this analysis .... my day-job is Electrical Engineer.

I hate having to explain things to engineers - they always pretend to understand things. lol - Just kidding

Go back and read exactly what I'm doing and it might make more sense.

If you didn't use a true RMS meter, your readings will be bunk. I'm not adding a resistor to increase current flow - I'M TRYING TO REDUCE IT!!!

I hate to tell you, but the reason the 06 grips work in parallel is because they are wired to produce over 178 WATTS!! That's the reason people can't run their grips at more than 3 or 4 bars. Let that sink in for a minute.

signed - Electrical Engineering Technologist.

Yep - I understand completely what you are talking about
The '06 grips were originally wired in series. The '07 update wires them in parallel. But the parallel resistance of the '07 setup is only marginally lower than the series setup of the '06 grips. But putting the '06 grips in parrallel greatly reduces the resistance ... which is why they get so hot.

Adding a resistor in parallel with the grips will reduce the resistance of the entire system, and thus increase the current flow of the entire system, and increase the wattage of the entire system. But, the current through the grips themselves will not change, and thus the wattage of the grips will not be increased.

Taking the original series setup and changing it to a parallel setup will increase the current flow through the grips, and increase the wattage output. But putting another resistor in parallel with the grips will not increase the current flow through the grips. The only way to increase the wattage at the grips is to somehow increase the current flow through them.

An idea I was working on, but never toyed around with is a transformer. My thought was to use a transformer to step the 12V PWM signal up to around 16V. I think this would bump the current flow through the grips to get a more comfortable heat output. .... What do you think of this?

Ahhh.... grasshopper, we are not putting any resistors in parallel with anything, they are going in series with each hotgrip. Maybe I didn't explain that part too well. Sorry.

Not too sure on that transformer thing, I would hope we wouldn't have to go to such extremes to get heat!!

 

[ruffryder]

It seems to me more complicated to isolate the two heater elements so they will operate selectively (one and then both) on one wire through a switch if they are in a parallel configuration as you described. In my head both heater elements would always be connected in this construction. But I’m a ME, not an EE so it’s completely possible that I don’t know what I’m talking about.

Cool, just curious going off of http://www.rsiracing.com/product_info.php?cPath=0_30&products_id=207

These seem to be two circuits in parallel for each grip... I am learning way more about handwarmers, than I thought possible...

 

[Timeline]

Well I don't have ENG. on my business card but my days with the meter were not that long ago. Only Certified Electronic Technician, Technical Service Advisor, which means nothing.
ruffryder my thinking would be that the three wire system would be an on, off and high, low switch position. One wire would likely be positive voltage into the switch. That would be the on position and on high feeding the grips full battery voltage on the second wire. The other position on the switch would be low that feeds the grips with voltage through a resistor.

Blueballer that makes a lot more sense now that you explain it that way. I think we were both thinking that you were not changing bars and trying to make your current ones do that with a resistor.
I have a true RMS meter. What did you want to check? I'll do it and report back. I got an idea but just wanted to confirm. Although I don't have the 06 bars if that's what you were thinking. I want to try something without changing the bars.
Did you get the PWM controller with your Hot Grips?

 

[Turtle]

Ahhh.... grasshopper, we are not putting any resistors in parallel with anything, they are going in series with each hotgrip. Maybe I didn't explain that part too well. Sorry.

That definitely won't work. Adding resistance in series with the grips will reduce the amount of current going through the grips ... and make them even colder yet.