09 handwarmer resistance

[Timeline]

I agree with LJ 452 in the fact that stressed components may get hurt in the long run. At least the ones that I deal with do. Replacing a failed card or motor controller with no other faults found usually end up with another failure down the road. I really hope that's not the case here. That's why I icontinue to lean towards not using the ECU as a fusible link and using another source.

I was tinkering again and this is what I found. I hope I'm not boring anyone.

This was at idle. I thought it was 14 volts at 4000 to 4500 rpm. Double checked Apex manual and it says 5000 rpm. Nytro may be different.

I thought they felt different last year. First year only used last half of season. Heat photos above confirmed so this is what I did.
At idle and slightly above. T1, middle of grip.

T2, at hook.

Delta T at five minutes run time.

This time I added a few jumpers and disconnected the grips from the harness.
Sled off. I applied battery voltage to the parallel circuit. I added a couple of meters for fun. Middle of grip. T1.

At hook. T2.

Delta T at 5 minutes of battery voltage. Amp. clamp was on positive wire.
Note that battery voltage dropped slighty when applied to resistive circuit.

 

[arteeex]

Clearly this testing is incomplete without at least 5 electronic gadgets. And, that had better be a digital watch, 'cause it looks old school from here.

The temp difference jibes with what I saw using the IR camera. The grip is hottest near the hook on the Nytro (I see you’re testing on an Apex). I wouldn't expect this to be a big deal after the system reaches a steady state condition. But the low temperature (with normal connections) is indicative of weak heater performance in general. I would have to pull by heat transfer books out to be sure, but I think it’s accurate to say you could expect to see grip temps of about 30-35F over ambient during actual wintertime use (assuming your test space was 65-70F). Unless there’s a significant change in the voltage supply or duty cycle after 4500 RPM to increase the output of the grip heater this seems pretty weak for the expected conditions. I know that during rides in temps of around 10F the grips were only slightly warm to my bare hands.

Note: The service manual provides the following specifications for the grips on the Nytro: 6.12 – 7.48 Ohms @ 68F, and 36.99 – 45.21 Ohms @ 68F for the thumb warmer. This matches what others have measured on their sleds. Also, from what I’ve been told three things affect the voltage supply to the grips; engine RPM, applying the brakes, and the radiator fan.

I have two thoughts on possible work-arounds. The first is to wire in the RSI heaters with the high and low heater elements in parallel and then add another resistor in series to bring the combined resistance up to about 5 Ohms, which might not stretch the ECU too far. The other idea is to move the heater element (either stock or RSI) from under the grip to on top of it and then cover this with a layer of heavy shrink tube or thin handle bar tape. My thought here is this would provide significant insulation between the bar and heater and move the heater itself closer to me. This alone will increase the heat transfer rate potential as the R-value of the grip is working for and not against us in the equation.

I’m going to give this second idea a shot unless someone here can talk me out of it. Afterwards I’ll check my work with the IR camera and find out if I’ve wasted my time or discovered yet another facet of my boundless intellect.

Any comments?

 

[LJ 452]

Good data Timeline!

This is great, I love seeing all the meters and tech stuff. Being an Engineer I prefer actual data over, well, it felt this or that. Now, my question is, from what I see above it appears that under continous power from a battery, (I assume it was the sled battery or was it a larger car type) there was a 25* to 50* increase? WOW, this is what I was hoping, now I realize that this was done in a say 60*-70*F garage but I don't think you can deny that it made a difference. Also with the charging system functioning we should see a slightly higher voltage, maybe closer to 14+. Worst case I think you could use the external controller with a set of RSI heat grids. That may prove to be the most effective for Arctic conditions, for us in the slightly warmer areas just a control change may do the trick. As I said before I like the idea of bypassing the ECU, the main reason being the safety of it, but also the heaters wont's turn off because you hit the brake or the fan is running.

By the way, my switch is in, and I plan on having scope readings from the Phazer, Apex and hopefully a Nytro by the end of the weekend.

 

[BLUEBALLER]

Clearly this testing is incomplete without at least 5 electronic gadgets. And, that had better be a digital watch, 'cause it looks old school from here.

The temp difference jibes with what I saw using the IR camera. The grip is hottest near the hook on the Nytro (I see you’re testing on an Apex). I wouldn't expect this to be a big deal after the system reaches a steady state condition. But the low temperature (with normal connections) is indicative of weak heater performance in general. I would have to pull by heat transfer books out to be sure, but I think it’s accurate to say you could expect to see grip temps of about 30-35F over ambient during actual wintertime use (assuming your test space was 65-70F). Unless there’s a significant change in the voltage supply or duty cycle after 4500 RPM to increase the output of the grip heater this seems pretty weak for the expected conditions. I know that during rides in temps of around 10F the grips were only slightly warm to my bare hands.

Note: The service manual provides the following specifications for the grips on the Nytro: 6.12 – 7.48 Ohms @ 68F, and 36.99 – 45.21 Ohms @ 68F for the thumb warmer. This matches what others have measured on their sleds. Also, from what I’ve been told three things affect the voltage supply to the grips; engine RPM, applying the brakes, and the radiator fan.

I have two thoughts on possible work-arounds. The first is to wire in the RSI heaters with the high and low heater elements in parallel and then add another resistor in series to bring the combined resistance up to about 5 Ohms, which might not stretch the ECU too far. The other idea is to move the heater element (either stock or RSI) from under the grip to on top of it and then cover this with a layer of heavy shrink tube or thin handle bar tape. My thought here is this would provide significant insulation between the bar and heater and move the heater itself closer to me. This alone will increase the heat transfer rate potential as the R-value of the grip is working for and not against us in the equation.

I’m going to give this second idea a shot unless someone here can talk me out of it. Afterwards I’ll check my work with the IR camera and find out if I’ve wasted my time or discovered yet another facet of my boundless intellect.

Any comments?

You won't be able to reuse the stock heating elements. If you are going with the rsi heating elements, I would slap em on the stock bars and use their gel wraps overtop. it seems the resistance values are good enough to throw out sufficient heat.

For what its worth - I measured my hotgrips in series with some 1 ohm resisitors - well, my 3 ohm hotgrips actually measure 3.4 ohms, and my 1 ohm power resistors actually measure 1.5. total for each loop measured 4.9 ohm. which works out to 28 Watts per grip and just under 6 amps for the entire circuit. i'll be wiring em in today and will give an update with the ol temp gauge.

 

[NyTrOMaNIaC]

Good data Timeline!

This is great, I love seeing all the meters and tech stuff. Being an Engineer I prefer actual data over, well, it felt this or that. Now, my question is, from what I see above it appears that under continous power from a battery, (I assume it was the sled battery or was it a larger car type) there was a 25* to 50* increase? WOW, this is what I was hoping, now I realize that this was done in a say 60*-70*F garage but I don't think you can deny that it made a difference. Also with the charging system functioning we should see a slightly higher voltage, maybe closer to 14+. Worst case I think you could use the external controller with a set of RSI heat grids. That may prove to be the most effective for Arctic conditions, for us in the slightly warmer areas just a control change may do the trick. As I said before I like the idea of bypassing the ECU, the main reason being the safety of it, but also the heaters wont's turn off because you hit the brake or the fan is running.

By the way, my switch is in, and I plan on having scope readings from the Phazer, Apex and hopefully a Nytro by the end of the weekend.

I doubt you'll find much difference in the Phazer handwarmers. My gf's Phazer FX gets pretty cold, and we usually end up leaving for home early because her hands are frozen, and that's with a top of the line pair of Klim Togwotee Gore Tex gloves on. It truly makes for a waste of a day, especially when you're really looking forward to those powder days....

On a brighter note, I want to say Thanks to all those who are trying hard to find a solution to this ongoing problem ! I've checked mine over and over with meters last season and compared it to my neighbor's exact same sled (who miraculously has excellent working handwarmers, I know, go figure !?!?!) and I've been to my Yamaha dealer several times doing exactly what's going on here, and the best electrical tech head they had couldn't figure it out either with all their shop gadgets !

Keep trying guys, we'll figure it out !

 

[Crewchief47]

What about using the old trailing arm sled handwarmer dial/variable resistor??? Not sure how much the piece costs compared to RSI's, but I would assume they do the same thing.

 

[ruffryder]

I haven't gotten a hold of an oscilliscope yet.... should be next week now. Oh well...

I think the main issue when trying to compare the watt rating of different handwarmers, is that all other sleds besides yamaha's are at 100% duty cycle (means they are on for 100 % of the time). But with the PWM signal, it seems that when on high, the pwm is only at 50-70% duty cycle. Therefore for a similar wattage hand warmers, the yamaha will seem like 50-70% of the heat capability compared to other sleds...

I hope to get accurate info soon.

 

[Timeline]

Clearly this testing is incomplete without at least 5 electronic gadgets. And, that had better be a digital watch, 'cause it looks old school from here.

The temp difference jibes with what I saw using the IR camera. The grip is hottest near the hook on the Nytro (I see you’re testing on an Apex). I wouldn't expect this to be a big deal after the system reaches a steady state condition. But the low temperature (with normal connections) is indicative of weak heater performance in general. I would have to pull by heat transfer books out to be sure, but I think it’s accurate to say you could expect to see grip temps of about 30-35F over ambient during actual wintertime use (assuming your test space was 65-70F). Unless there’s a significant change in the voltage supply or duty cycle after 4500 RPM to increase the output of the grip heater this seems pretty weak for the expected conditions. I know that during rides in temps of around 10F the grips were only slightly warm to my bare hands.

Note: The service manual provides the following specifications for the grips on the Nytro: 6.12 – 7.48 Ohms @ 68F, and 36.99 – 45.21 Ohms @ 68F for the thumb warmer. This matches what others have measured on their sleds. Also, from what I’ve been told three things affect the voltage supply to the grips; engine RPM, applying the brakes, and the radiator fan.

I have two thoughts on possible work-arounds. The first is to wire in the RSI heaters with the high and low heater elements in parallel and then add another resistor in series to bring the combined resistance up to about 5 Ohms, which might not stretch the ECU too far. The other idea is to move the heater element (either stock or RSI) from under the grip to on top of it and then cover this with a layer of heavy shrink tube or thin handle bar tape. My thought here is this would provide significant insulation between the bar and heater and move the heater itself closer to me. This alone will increase the heat transfer rate potential as the R-value of the grip is working for and not against us in the equation.

I’m going to give this second idea a shot unless someone here can talk me out of it. Afterwards I’ll check my work with the IR camera and find out if I’ve wasted my time or discovered yet another facet of my boundless intellect.

Any comments?

You got the gadgets, knock yourself out. Man critiquing the watch. Not that anyone but you cares, yes it's an older watch great in it's day and now used in my day to day environment and working in the garage. Some say it's still too nice for that but you may be lucky enough to work in the garage wearing your Rolex. I save mine for business casual dress.

Apex manual says 1.83 to 2.24 ohms at 20*c or 68*f for left and right grip warmers. I measured 3.5 ohms at around that temp. or 7 ohms when wired to the harness. I suspect you are wired in parallel with this measurement but you did not state that or the Nytro is slightly different.
You may have more gadgets and get different results though.

The idea of bringing the grip closer to you as you say is good but using heat shrink for a grip or thin wrap won't last too long and you'll likely be holding on to the heaters in no time. Now that's close.
Putting heat shrink on the bar and the heaters on top would achieve something but good luck getting the grips on as they are tough to get on at the best of times. The R value you speak of can be achieved by foaming the bars as many here have done. This will keep your heat loss to a minimum from that hollow space inside that steel bar that has cold air rushing through it.

I appreciate your IR images and hope we are not wasting your time. All constructive input is great. I'm glad you are proud of your boundless intellect, you sure impressed me. Give yourself a pat on the back and someday maybe I can buy you a beer on a TY ride or something.

Peace Out!!!

 

[arteeex]

I am skeptical there is real value in putting insulating foam in the bars. If air were whistling thru it at 70 mph then it would make sense to me. Stagnant air is a good insulator all by itself. Because it’s cheap and easy I would add the foam in conjunction with other efforts but it isn’t the end game. The bigger loss, by an order of magnitude or more, is likely to be thru the handle bar material. But given the smallish cross-section available for heat transfer this too isn’t a big offender. The fact that grips on other brands and even other Yamahas can keep up with the heat losses thru these same factors is an indication again that there is simply not enough energy being converted to heat in the elements on the Nytro.

My rationale for using the stock heater elements for the brain fart described above is to continue to using the stock heater control system and to avoid the annoyance of a flashing error indicator on the speedo pod. I understand that these heater elements are probably impossible to extricate from the grips in one piece, so new units (or the RSI units) would be required. The bit about shrink tube is from past experience with some industrial strength materials. I could see replacing this a time or two in a season and I would gladly do this for warm paws. Another option is to use thin handle bar tape for the same purpose.

I’m not wasting my time. I’m at work.

 

[BLUEBALLER]

I haven't gotten a hold of an oscilliscope yet.... should be next week now. Oh well...

I think the main issue when trying to compare the watt rating of different handwarmers, is that all other sleds besides yamaha's are at 100% duty cycle (means they are on for 100 % of the time). But with the PWM signal, it seems that when on high, the pwm is only at 50-70% duty cycle. Therefore for a similar wattage hand warmers, the yamaha will seem like 50-70% of the heat capability compared to other sleds...

I hope to get accurate info soon.

Please do, as I truely hate assumptions. Not to sure where the 50-70% number came from. Probably from someones azz. lol jk

 

[Timeline]

Good data Timeline!

This is great, I love seeing all the meters and tech stuff. Being an Engineer I prefer actual data over, well, it felt this or that. Now, my question is, from what I see above it appears that under continuous power from a battery, (I assume it was the sled battery or was it a larger car type) there was a 25* to 50* increase? WOW, this is what I was hoping, now I realize that this was done in a say 60*-70*F garage but I don't think you can deny that it made a difference. Also with the charging system functioning we should see a slightly higher voltage, maybe closer to 14+. Worst case I think you could use the external controller with a set of RSI heat grids. That may prove to be the most effective for Arctic conditions, for us in the slightly warmer areas just a control change may do the trick. As I said before I like the idea of bypassing the ECU, the main reason being the safety of it, but also the heaters wont's turn off because you hit the brake or the fan is running.

By the way, my switch is in, and I plan on having scope readings from the Phazer, Apex and hopefully a Nytro by the end of the weekend.

Thanks, I work with Engineers consistently on the Technician level and help them sort out problems that they say, it should have worked like this and it does on paper. In real world applications it doesn't or it's on the limits to be cost effective and fails constantly. ( right Yamaha? )
I prefer real life data as well and that's the way I ask my Technicians to be.
Yes that is with the sleds battery. The constant voltage I believe is key hear. The 99.5% of the Hot Grips controller may get this close for us and I am looking forward to your data. I think Yamaha compromised here to protect the ECU. I did measure the voltage with an old analog meter so the average reading of the RMS meter does not effect it that much and only found a difference of about 1volt. Then again as said before this PWM and voltage seems to be affected by rpm, fan and brakes.
I said the same thing when I saw the temperature increase. That may be good enough for me.

 

[LJ 452]

I said the same thing when I saw the temperature increase. That may be good enough for me.

Exactly!!! I don't need the grips to be 400*F just need them to introduce some heat after a stop, or if it's really cold out. I would think that if my grip could get to 125* under my glove that would be enough.

On a side note I was looking at some PWM's online and from what I can tell it appears that a unit with an ampacity of 15 amps is fairly sizeable, looks about the size of a baseball only rectangle. This may only be one type of unit but it made me think that if this is needed to handle 15 amps, the ECU in our sleds surely won't hold up over time if the 06' bars are used. Granted the duty cycle is up to 100% but still even at 50% it just seems risky.

 

[arteeex]

Attached are pages from the manual related to the electrical system for the grips.

Perhaps those gifted in the ways of electricity can make use of this.

 

[Timeline]

I am skeptical there is real value in putting insulating foam in the bars. If air were whistling thru it at 70 mph then it would make sense to me. Stagnant air is a good insulator all by itself. Because it’s cheap and easy I would add the foam in conjunction with other efforts but it isn’t the end game. The bigger loss, by an order of magnitude or more, is likely to be thru the handle bar material. But given the smallish cross-section available for heat transfer this too isn’t a big offender. The fact that grips on other brands and even other Yamahas can keep up with the heat losses thru these same factors is an indication again that there is simply not enough energy being converted to heat in the elements on the Nytro.

My rationale for using the stock heater elements for the brain fart described above is to continue to using the stock heater control system and to avoid the annoyance of a flashing error indicator on the speedo pod. I understand that these heater elements are probably impossible to extricate from the grips in one piece, so new units (or the RSI units) would be required. The bit about shrink tube is from past experience with some industrial strength materials. I could see replacing this a time or two in a season and I would gladly do this for warm paws. Another option is to use thin handle bar tape for the same purpose.

I’m not wasting my time. I’m at work.

Agree with you. I'm at work too, and working hard today.
I think the idea of the spray foam insulation will work and may help slightly. The air is moving in there as my grips have holes in them and the air is moving to a degree. The Nytro may be different. That I believe is the slight difference in my AC ZRT as it has high wattage resistors inside the bars that are the heaters and the grip ends are sealed to the environment. It's at the cottage so I haven't been able to compare the two. The heaters on the ZRT are a lot stronger then my Apex and are operated with a three position switch. Off, high and low.

The error code could easily be fixed as I said before by installing two 7 ohm resistors in place of the grip heaters making the ECU think that the heaters are still there.

 

[arteeex]

Won't the 7-Ohm resistors still eat our limited supply of Watts? I'm thinking we want to use these same Watts in another heater scenario.

I really like the cartridge heater idea.