arteeex
TY 4 Stroke Master
Power = Voltage^2 / Resistance in this case, since we think the voltage is a constant.
Less resistance means more power (output).
Less resistance means more power (output).
ruffryder
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I have a set of the grips coming my way, and I also have got the information on the RSI extended grip warmers. The grips have two elements per warmer, a high and a low. Below are the specs.
High = 6.4 ohms rated at 30 W
Low = 12.8 ohms rated at 15 W
The two elements can be wired in parallel for one side. That will give you the following
One side in parallel (high and low) = 4.27 ohms
Both sides in parallel again = 2.135 ohms
P = V^2/R so power of the handwarmers = 79.16 Watts
This assumes a voltage of around 13 volts. It looks like these will be a good match for our system.
I am going to be getting my hands on an oscilloscope soon (Mon or Tues). I plan on verifying if indeed the warmers only work above 4500, what the frequency/time period is, what the voltage is and if it changes with setting, and what the pwm signal looks like for each setting.
I will also be checking to see what the resistance is on the stock grips when cold, and when hot. I have talked with some who think there might be a difference. We shall see.
Should be some interesting information, and will help to see what the limits of the ecu are, or at least define them a little better.
In comparing the above data, it looks like the RSI's are a good match for the needs of the nytro.
One thing that has me curious though, is if there are guys running the 06 bars on newer sleds, even though they are only running on 1 or 2, if the pwm output is at full voltage, then they will be seeing full current. If this is true (voltage magnitude doesn't change, only pwm signal) then I would assume that the ecu can handle 12 amps or so... Maybe.... we shall see.
High = 6.4 ohms rated at 30 W
Low = 12.8 ohms rated at 15 W
The two elements can be wired in parallel for one side. That will give you the following
One side in parallel (high and low) = 4.27 ohms
Both sides in parallel again = 2.135 ohms
P = V^2/R so power of the handwarmers = 79.16 Watts
This assumes a voltage of around 13 volts. It looks like these will be a good match for our system.
I am going to be getting my hands on an oscilloscope soon (Mon or Tues). I plan on verifying if indeed the warmers only work above 4500, what the frequency/time period is, what the voltage is and if it changes with setting, and what the pwm signal looks like for each setting.
I will also be checking to see what the resistance is on the stock grips when cold, and when hot. I have talked with some who think there might be a difference. We shall see.
Should be some interesting information, and will help to see what the limits of the ecu are, or at least define them a little better.
In comparing the above data, it looks like the RSI's are a good match for the needs of the nytro.
One thing that has me curious though, is if there are guys running the 06 bars on newer sleds, even though they are only running on 1 or 2, if the pwm output is at full voltage, then they will be seeing full current. If this is true (voltage magnitude doesn't change, only pwm signal) then I would assume that the ecu can handle 12 amps or so... Maybe.... we shall see.
r0tax
Pro
awesome ruffryder, ty. thats exactly what i want. i'm going to order now. btw, im only putting one side on....so 6.4 (high) is close enough to 7.4 for me. 
the rewiring is easy to do later if i want to.. all i know is having NOTHING sucks...was fine end of april through june.. but in the colder months I need something.
Thanks again.
the rewiring is easy to do later if i want to.. all i know is having NOTHING sucks...was fine end of april through june.. but in the colder months I need something. Thanks again.
ruffryder said:
ruffryder
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
r0tax said:awesome ruffryder, ty. thats exactly what i want. i'm going to order now. btw, im only putting one side on....so 6.4 (high) is close enough to 7.4 for me.
Thanks again.
You are half way to warm hands, why stop there?
r0tax
Pro
ruffryder said:r0tax said:awesome ruffryder, ty. thats exactly what i want. i'm going to order now. btw, im only putting one side on....so 6.4 (high) is close enough to 7.4 for me.
Thanks again.
You are half way to warm hands, why stop there?
yah maybe. will see how much of a pita it is to reinstall the rh grip / heater first.
if my lh heater was working alone at 7.4 ohms "total" which would mean, much colder than what they normally would be...i think with it working properly (in parallel) it should be plenty warm on burn..
LJ 452
TY 4 Stroke God
As I said I think it's good to have some different options going here. With that whatever is done, make sure you record data before and after do that we can get a better understanding of the effect.
As for the RSI grips, if you wired the two elements in parallel and your around 2 ohms, that should definitely get you more heat out of the otherwise stock system with that you will still be over double the OEM current draw. Much better than the 12+ amps from the 06' bars but none the less still over. This is probably much easier and more effective than messing with resistors and trying to get the 06' bars (if you can find them) to work. Good work, definitely on to something here!
Ruffryder: On your last comment, about the ECU being at full amperage all the time, yes, I think you are correct. That is precisely why I didn't want to use the 06' bars with the harness on my Apex. The instantaneous current would be the same no matter what level your set to, the duty cycle would be effected by what level as the "on" time increases. What would be great is to have someone with a 03' and up sled scope the grips to see if the pulse wave is any different.
I don't know what is in that box, but I do know that the A.C/D.C. systems I deal with at work have limitations. Similar to this, I deal with instantaneous currents on low/mid-frequency D.C. power supplies, only on the larger scale. The two unknowns here are duty cycle and ampacity of the ECU or at least the circuit controlling the grips. A duty cycle curve would be great, anyone got one? The thing to remember is that, electrical systems are design to operate for X amount of cycles at X amount of power. You can go well over that rated power level and it will continue to function as if nothing has been damaged. In reality the life span is shortened every cycle that it's fired above the rated level.
For this reason, I am trying to bypass the ECU all together, at least until we get a better understanding of what the OEM circuit is, and what it's rated for. For those that have already wired up the 06' bars, I hope it never is an issue but it's just not worth the risk to me. It very well could be that the life span of the ECU operating at the above levels is longer than the lifespan of the sled so in reality it doesn’t matter. I guess time will tell. I can only hope that if it goes it will only be the grip circuit that is affected.
My intent here is not to scare anyone but rather try to pass information along that will let everyone make an educated decision. I'm not an expert in the electrical field but as I said, I do deal with it a work. For you double E's out there, if any of my tech information is incorrect, let me know.
Sorry for yet another long winded post, man I need my sled, to much time to type.
As for the RSI grips, if you wired the two elements in parallel and your around 2 ohms, that should definitely get you more heat out of the otherwise stock system with that you will still be over double the OEM current draw. Much better than the 12+ amps from the 06' bars but none the less still over. This is probably much easier and more effective than messing with resistors and trying to get the 06' bars (if you can find them) to work. Good work, definitely on to something here!
Ruffryder: On your last comment, about the ECU being at full amperage all the time, yes, I think you are correct. That is precisely why I didn't want to use the 06' bars with the harness on my Apex. The instantaneous current would be the same no matter what level your set to, the duty cycle would be effected by what level as the "on" time increases. What would be great is to have someone with a 03' and up sled scope the grips to see if the pulse wave is any different.
I don't know what is in that box, but I do know that the A.C/D.C. systems I deal with at work have limitations. Similar to this, I deal with instantaneous currents on low/mid-frequency D.C. power supplies, only on the larger scale. The two unknowns here are duty cycle and ampacity of the ECU or at least the circuit controlling the grips. A duty cycle curve would be great, anyone got one? The thing to remember is that, electrical systems are design to operate for X amount of cycles at X amount of power. You can go well over that rated power level and it will continue to function as if nothing has been damaged. In reality the life span is shortened every cycle that it's fired above the rated level.
For this reason, I am trying to bypass the ECU all together, at least until we get a better understanding of what the OEM circuit is, and what it's rated for. For those that have already wired up the 06' bars, I hope it never is an issue but it's just not worth the risk to me. It very well could be that the life span of the ECU operating at the above levels is longer than the lifespan of the sled so in reality it doesn’t matter. I guess time will tell. I can only hope that if it goes it will only be the grip circuit that is affected.
My intent here is not to scare anyone but rather try to pass information along that will let everyone make an educated decision. I'm not an expert in the electrical field but as I said, I do deal with it a work. For you double E's out there, if any of my tech information is incorrect, let me know.
Sorry for yet another long winded post, man I need my sled, to much time to type.
arteeex
TY 4 Stroke Master
Thermal Images
Below are images of the right grip captured with an infrared camera. You can see by the scale that they did not get very hot (about 90F) during this run. The output seems fairly well distributed. The heated zone looks to be about 60 - 70% of the grip. The smaller heat signature to the left in the images is the throttle. The left grip looked very similar at the end of the test.
I didn't run past five minutes to keep from over-heating the motor.
With the camera you can actually see the heat signature pulsating during the warm-up.
Ambient temp was about 65F.
Ain't science cool?
All pictures with heat setting on HIGH. Pictures taken @ 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, and 5 min after 4500 rpm for about 20 sec.
Below are images of the right grip captured with an infrared camera. You can see by the scale that they did not get very hot (about 90F) during this run. The output seems fairly well distributed. The heated zone looks to be about 60 - 70% of the grip. The smaller heat signature to the left in the images is the throttle. The left grip looked very similar at the end of the test.
I didn't run past five minutes to keep from over-heating the motor.
With the camera you can actually see the heat signature pulsating during the warm-up.
Ambient temp was about 65F.
Ain't science cool?
All pictures with heat setting on HIGH. Pictures taken @ 1 min, 2 min, 3 min, and 5 min after 4500 rpm for about 20 sec.
Attachments
marsh14
Expert
Are those the factory grips?
ruffryder
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Got Apex RTX? said:
I will have my nytro on a scope in a couple of days. It won't have direct data recording, but I am sure my camera does..... lol
Got Apex RTX? said:
We are trying
arteeex
TY 4 Stroke Master
The images above are of the stock grip.
Below are images of the right grips on my Nytro and Rev. After about 3 minutes the grip on the REV measured ~122F and stayed there until I shut it off at 4 minutes.
Tonight the Nytro grip showed only the one hot spot on the underside of the bar hook after five minutes at idle. Last winter I suspected that the heaters were inconsistent. This adds to the suspicion.
The last picture just looks cool.
Below are images of the right grips on my Nytro and Rev. After about 3 minutes the grip on the REV measured ~122F and stayed there until I shut it off at 4 minutes.
Tonight the Nytro grip showed only the one hot spot on the underside of the bar hook after five minutes at idle. Last winter I suspected that the heaters were inconsistent. This adds to the suspicion.
The last picture just looks cool.
Attachments
r0tax
Pro
is the nytro right? sure looks toast under the hood..
that hot spot on the underside looks like the rivet 'absorbing' heat..
cool seeing infared tho
that hot spot on the underside looks like the rivet 'absorbing' heat..
cool seeing infared tho
arteeex
TY 4 Stroke Master
The Nytro is fine. The heat signature you see is from the radiator. I did have the upper body work off too. Because the REV has it's heat exchanger under the tunnel it didn't light up from the front view.
The hot spot on the grip probably indicates heater elements running close together. What is interesting to me is how different the heat signature is from my test a day earlier.
The hot spot on the grip probably indicates heater elements running close together. What is interesting to me is how different the heat signature is from my test a day earlier.
RSI
Newbie
- Joined
- Sep 5, 2008
- Messages
- 1
ruffryder said:Got Apex RTX? said:
I will have my nytro on a scope in a couple of days. It won't have direct data recording, but I am sure my camera does..... lol
Got Apex RTX? said:
We are trying
Looks like our heaters are going to be the ticket. Keep us posted on your results Ruffryder.
Vector1
Expert
RSI
Thanks for joining in and welcome to the site.
Thanks for joining in and welcome to the site.
Timeline
Pro
- Joined
- Jan 1, 2008
- Messages
- 129
- Location
- Orangeville & Wasaga Beach Ontario
- Country
- Canada
- Snowmobile
- 16 APEX XTX
Welcome RSI. Thanks for joining in here.
Can you buy the hooked bar heater with the resistor harness? I was
thinking of possibly using that with the slick rocker switch. Also will you sell the resistor setup separately and the rocker switch if I decide to use them with my stock grips. Just checking options. I understand if you have to sell them as a package.
Can you buy the hooked bar heater with the resistor harness? I was
thinking of possibly using that with the slick rocker switch. Also will you sell the resistor setup separately and the rocker switch if I decide to use them with my stock grips. Just checking options. I understand if you have to sell them as a package.