998 engine rebuild

[max rolph]

my sled is at TD as we speak, its been there since late feb, i had just had the new waste gate actuator done a week before. we were out riding hard i had purked some antifreeze after a long wide open run and stopped for others to catch up, couldnt tell how much it spit out, continued to ride that day no heat issues, no light running at 170. next day , checked bottle andit was still full, went out 5 min into ride opened it up on road and a sec or two later smelt oil and looked back and it looked like i was crop dusting. i guess i had an air lock created in system which caused a over heat on pto cyl. block had marks soo it was completely replated, all new components inc cams n chain...STAGE 6. it still is not done being put together, engine is done ready to fireup i was told apparently... parts took soo long due to friggin covid. cant wait... hope the tune is matched.. i really want it on the dyno.

 

[Motorhead]

Couple points to consider...... A tuner has to recommend an octane for the tune he creates. He has to imagine the different conditions the sled will likely see through the course of a winter. This varies from mild to wild riding, different weight riders and the list goes on and on. He probably chooses an octane that will work for the majority of riders and average conditions. Running a sled1,2 or even 3 miles wide open is not what the average rider will do through out the course of a winter. Light cruising and never going wide open is also not what the average rider will do. In those 2 cases 87 octane will work for one guy and the other will need 98. How do you perfectly recommend the perfect octane......you cant, you have to suggest what will cover most of the bases and I believe they did a good job of suggesting that or atleast the best they could. If they wanted to guarantee every tune was covered under every single condition they would have to suggest a very high octane gas that isnt available at the pumps and this isnt needed for the majority, their tunes an octane ratings are fine. Datalog your sled during your riding style and review and no where you stand and you will know if the octane your using is adequate or if it needs a little something added to the recipe or if its happier with a certain clutch setup over the other etc. I cant speak for hurricane but td has the knock light flash somewhere after 2-2.5 degrees of timing retard and I believe hurricane is similiar. They chose this configuration because its ok and it works. Every modern gas engine has experienced light knock and the ecu has done adjustments to keep it at a light, non damaging knock. If you want zero knock, zero ti ming retard in any condition then be prepared to lose all your fuel mileage and all your response and power. You cant have both all of the time. Your 2018 chevy pickup that runs happily on 87 octane gas does just that till you hook up to an 8000lb trailer on a 90 degree day and begin to climb a large hill and the knock sensor, the little tiny microphone listening for knock does its job by detecting this baby knock and correcting it before it becomes damaging knock. on this day, 91 octane would of prevented this but gm doesnt say to use 91 all the time because its not needed,the ecu did its job and prevented any damage.I have just shy of 5000 miles on td tunes, ive seen the knock light a couple of times experimenting with clutching setups. Datalogs show slight amounts of timing retard being pulled at certain times, sled has ran tunes from 17-20.6psi since it has 200 miles on the odometer. The head came off of it for arp studs and valve retainers. There is zero evidence of deto, none whatsoever. The mechanic who did the work is one of the top 10 yamaha dealer techs in the country. Been racing his whole life, knows his stuff. The gap knock protection system does its job and it works as it should and as it is advertised. Nothing in life is idiot proof but Dave and Ben have systems that work, simple as that. As far as millenium technologies claiming they are seeing lots of engine damage from all the tuners, I find that a stretch on their part. I know hurricane and td dont have customers sign contracts when buying tunes that swear them to secrecy if something happens. I dont believe that td and hurricane customers are bashful and afraid to talk. People talk the most when they are pissed. And when you burn up a sled people get pissed even if it is their own doing. The last 2 years there has been a bunch of chatter on here about engine issues and just as much on all the facebook groups and its all been focused on one tuning company. Why are we not hearing so much chatter from the other camps? or do td and hurricane customers not post on ty and arent on facebook. I find that odd as Id venture to say that 80%(likely more) of the tuned sleds are running td or hurricane. Has there been some sleds from these guys gone down? Im sure their has but its not a tune problem or knock light problem etc......its bad luck, bad gas, bad operator etc. The tunes from either of these tuners using gap are fine and ready for you to run them. If your nervous and want to feel better, run your sled and log it. Learn what it needs and enjoy it for a long time while it lives a long reliable life. No need to be nervous about blowing your sled up, just give it what it needs and it wont let you down.

With your Data logging experience, is it only WOT that causes timing to be pulled ?

Where I do most of my riding, 1/4 to 1/2 mile straights are probably the longest I see on a regular basis, with 1 mile or under, may only happen once or twice during a ride.

But when we visit your neck of the woods, which we do multiple times during the season, those expansive multiple mile long beds are always calling us! We tend to run 1/2 to 3/4 throttle for the first mile and the WOT for the following 5 - 10 seconds, and thus really get to top out speed wise pretty quickly! I can surely see your point for data logging, knowing what your trail systems offer in your region known as The County. But of course we do some WOT from slower cruising speeds also!

So curious as to what you have seen with different throttle positions?

 

[justinator]

With your Data logging experience, is it only WOT that causes timing to be pulled ?

Where I do most of my riding, 1/4 to 1/2 mile straights are probably the longest I see on a regular basis, with 1 mile or under, may only happen once or twice during a ride.

But when we visit your neck of the woods, which we do multiple times during the season, those expansive multiple mile long beds are always calling us! We tend to run 1/2 to 3/4 throttle for the first mile and the WOT for the following 5 - 10 seconds, and thus really get to top out speed wise pretty quickly! I can surely see your point for data logging, knowing what your trail systems offer in your region known as The County. But of course we do some WOT from slower cruising speeds also!

So curious as to what you have seen with different throttle positions?

I have never noticed any timing being pulled unless at full throttle and high boost. I suppose high speed cruising in mushy snow for long enough could cause it to happen but I havent personally saw it. Short blasts of 5,6,7 seconds almost never pull any timing even on big tunes with straight 91. It usually happens on longer pulls or repeated back to back short to medium pulls over and over again. Its a direct relation to intake air temp mostly I find. Once the temp gets heated it will be more prone to knock and pull timing. On the td tunes its rare I ever see more than .2-.4 degrees of timing being pulled and many times its zero. Like I mentioned before these slight amounts are nothing to be concerned with and unless you plan on keeping your sled for 50,000 miles it wont lead to any issues. I would be more concerned with a sled that is constantly showing timing being pulled at whatever degree. It would indicate fuel quality issues or potential boost leaks or fueling issues or an array of other possibilities. A small amount of timing being pulled here and there when giving the sled the beans is acceptable. If it wasnt the tuners would of made the knock light activate much sooner.

 

[Motorhead]

I have never noticed any timing being pulled unless at full throttle and high boost. I suppose high speed cruising in mushy snow for long enough could cause it to happen but I havent personally saw it. Short blasts of 5,6,7 seconds almost never pull any timing even on big tunes with straight 91. It usually happens on longer pulls or repeated back to back short to medium pulls over and over again. Its a direct relation to intake air temp mostly I find. Once the temp gets heated it will be more prone to knock and pull timing. On the td tunes its rare I ever see more than .2-.4 degrees of timing being pulled and many times its zero. Like I mentioned before these slight amounts are nothing to be concerned with and unless you plan on keeping your sled for 50,000 miles it wont lead to any issues. I would be more concerned with a sled that is constantly showing timing being pulled at whatever degree. It would indicate fuel quality issues or potential boost leaks or fueling issues or an array of other possibilities. A small amount of timing being pulled here and there when giving the sled the beans is acceptable. If it wasnt the tuners would of made the knock light activate much sooner.

Thanks for that info!
This post about Deto, and 998 rebuilds because of it, is a great reminder that yes, there are limits for all motors, even 4 strokes when mods are added.

I’ve trusted TD and their knock protection tunes, but you point out the many reasons that Data logging adds, that extra safety and performance edge for those that like to push that envelope of safe, reliable hp to its limits!

I on the other hand like the simplicity of my set up thanks to what I thought, was a safe tune with not much to watch, except for speedo, rpms and heat.

So here I go updating again, from MS 16 to MS 17 and the SQ 2.5” muffler while utilizing pump fuel only, and now carrying a bottle of booster, Incase I have no choice, but to run less then 91 octane!

This post really has me second guessing some things!!

 

[STAIN]

I think my next tune will be the 240 stock muffler tune. Seems to the most fun with least worry.......

 

[Motorhead]

I think my next tune will be the 240 stock muffler tune. Seems to the most fun with least worry.......

My first tune was in that range, then I jumped up to MS16 and was wowed by the power difference. Probably should have stayed there, but you know what many say about that easy extra Boost and hp, it’s addicting!!
This is it I promise, I’m done after this MS17, says the addict!

 

[STAIN]

know what many say about that easy extra Boost and hp, it’s addicting

I know!! I ran the 240/270/300 trail muffler tune last year and it was a blast when right.
Between the worries about octane, knock light, intake heat, boost leaks and finding consistent clutching, I am not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.
The 240 SS is a pretty strong trail tune and I think that is where I will land this year with my new sled.

 

[Motorhead]

I know!! I ran the 240/270/300 trail muffler tune last year and it was a blast when right.
Between the worries about octane, knock light, intake heat, boost leaks and finding consistent clutching, I am not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.
The 240 SS is a pretty strong trail tune and I think that is where I will land this year with my new sled.

Well hell yes, you’ve already been there! So it’s very doable now! Smart man.

 

[1nc 2000]

I know!! I ran the 240/270/300 trail muffler tune last year and it was a blast when right.
Between the worries about octane, knock light, intake heat, boost leaks and finding consistent clutching, I am not sure the juice is worth the squeeze.
The 240 SS is a pretty strong trail tune and I think that is where I will land this year with my new sled.

If the juice isn't worth the squeeze a person must be getting old!

 

[Yamajon1]

If the juice isn't worth the squeeze a person must be getting old!

And wise!

 

[justinator]

Thanks for that info!
This post about Deto, and 998 rebuilds because of it, is a great reminder that yes, there are limits for all motors, even 4 strokes when mods are added.

I’ve trusted TD and their knock protection tunes, but you point out the many reasons that Data logging adds, that extra safety and performance edge for those that like to push that envelope of safe, reliable hp to its limits!

I on the other hand like the simplicity of my set up thanks to what I thought, was a safe tune with not much to watch, except for speedo, rpms and heat.

So here I go updating again, from MS 16 to MS 17 and the SQ 2.5” muffler while utilizing pump fuel only, and now carrying a bottle of booster, Incase I have no choice, but to run less then 91 octane!

This post really has me second guessing some things!!

Thats the problem with this post......while there is a good deal of info it has also got people second guessing the tunes they have already logged thousands of happy miles on. Ive mentioned the datalogging a million times because I feel its a great diagnostic tool/monitor. It allows you to health check your sled, the things you cant see. Get an idea of what it needs. With that being said, I have 100% confidence in a mechanically correct sled tuned using the gap platform(TD and Hurricane) with a driver that utilizes some common sense. It really goes a long ways. Enjoy your trouble free ms17 tune next winter! Its a great tune! Its got better response and lights up noticably quicker then ms16.

 

[STAIN]

If the juice isn't worth the squeeze a person must be getting old!

OUCH!!! That hurt!!!
Actually I like trying to wring every last ounce of performance out my sled.
The reality is becoming as I do get OLDER, I want to ride as much as I can. As much as I like tuning and testing, I want to ride, log miles and have fun doing it.
Time is becoming the most valuable thing I have.
I have discovered as much fun 300 hp is, and it is a BLAST!!, the responsibility in running that tune became tiresome. Always staring at the tach, looking for a knock light, worrying about fuel quality, carrying octane, --- became tiresome.
If I was retired or had winters off my opinion might change but for now I believe the 240 tune is the closest to "set it and forget it" we have out there.
For now I think 240 will have to do for me and I will concentrate on tuning the clutches to their maximum potential.
Maybe half way through the year I will find 240 doesn't cut it and return to the higher tunes, we will see....
Maybe I just need to retire and ride full time!!

 

[Mike Bennett]

Here's what happened to me after my first pull on a 280 tune. Maybe 1000 feet, no knock light during pull. Was clutched a bit light so I backed off. Cruised back to garage and got a flash at 8000 rpm. backed down and then the smoke came. Less than 2 miles in total on flash. Apparently the fresh PUMP gas that I was told was ok to run was not.

 

[Motorhead]

Thats the problem with this post......while there is a good deal of info it has also got people second guessing the tunes they have already logged thousands of happy miles on. Ive mentioned the datalogging a million times because I feel its a great diagnostic tool/monitor. It allows you to health check your sled, the things you cant see. Get an idea of what it needs. With that being said, I have 100% confidence in a mechanically correct sled tuned using the gap platform(TD and Hurricane) with a driver that utilizes some common sense. It really goes a long ways. Enjoy your trouble free ms17 tune next winter! Its a great tune! Its got better response and lights up noticably quicker then ms16.

Yeah can’t wait to clutch that 17 tune and see what the difference is between the two tunes. 15 ponies should let me feel a bit of difference. Just uncanny how mild my 16 tune was until you wanted it not to be!

My new exhaust sounds almost exact to my Smm that I had, and it will look the same once I finish it this fall!

 

[Crossfire12]

Here's what happened to me after my first pull on a 280 tune. Maybe 1000 feet, no knock light during pull. Was clutched a bit light so I backed off. Cruised back to garage and got a flash at 8000 rpm. backed down and then the smoke came. Less than 2 miles in total on flash. Apparently the fresh PUMP gas that I was told was ok to run was not.

Which tune?