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Antifreeze testing

Forgetting the "proper tester" issue for the moment, I'm interesting in getting back on the crux of this topic:

I find in extremely odd that Yamaha would fill their sleds from the factory with propylene glycol, then print in all their owners manuals that they should be topped off with ethylene glycol, and not specify a brand or type.

I believe the two mixes are sometimes compatable, but it seems not always. GM made a big deal out of not mixing their Dexcool (propylene) with conventional ethanol antifreeze. Those that did top theirs off with the wrong coolant ended up with very clotted ateries!

I would love to find written or official confirmation somewhere that these sleds are factory filled with propylene. I can't imagine Yamaha would just sort of mention it at one tech school, yet not bother putting in in writing somewhere (service manuals, tech bulletins?) to assist all their mechanics.
 

On both my 04 and 05 I added roughly 2 liters of water to my sleds have been in -40C temps and both sleds were fine. I know I dont need to have -60C protection because I wont ride in temps lower than -25C.
 
MrSled said:
Rex, you can say what you want, I am only stating the facts that if you want to say its wrong you better use the correct tester if you going to accuse Yamaha of the wrong mix.
Click to expand...

Let's not blow this out of proportion. We (100's of us on this site) have been using density based measurements for coolant testing for years. Prestone, one of the biggest and most respected antifreeze manufacturers, states on their web site that their coolant testers work for all ethylene glycol coolants and recommend they regularly be used to confirm adequate freeze protection. Prestone specifically states the following about their tester "Works for all Ethylene Glycol coolants, including Prestone, GM Dex-Cool, 5/150 Extended Life Antifreese Coolant".

Here is a thread where a few TY'ers used a refractometer and also found more than 60:40

http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=34101

kenbar took a sample from his 07 Attak to a dealer and tested it with a quality refractometer. It showed an 80:20 mix or more (pegged at the limit of the tester).

BANDITSSRX says he has tested several sleds with a refractometer. Most were close to 60:40 but the highest he has seen is 70:30

Tork, one of the respected moderators here, says "I know Yamaha shoots for 60% from the factory, but somehow it is more like 80%. I have just seen so many cases where it is higher."

My dealer also told me that they have seen several Yamaha sleds with too high an antifreeze concentration.

I truely don't know what to make of all this but it's pretty clear that several of us are using tools (density and index of refraction based) that are considered functional (at least in the coolant industry) to measure our antifreeze concentrations and at least some are measuring more than a 60:40 mix. We are not trying to accuse Yamaha of anything. We're stating factual results of coolant tests on our sleds, what tools we used to perform the tests, what we did as a result of it, and any other things we have noticed (for example running cooler or not freezing).
 
craze1cars said:
Forgetting the "proper tester" issue for the moment, I'm interesting in getting back on the crux of this topic:

I find in extremely odd that Yamaha would fill their sleds from the factory with propylene glycol, then print in all their owners manuals that they should be topped off with ethylene glycol, and not specify a brand or type.

I believe the two mixes are sometimes compatible, but it seems not always. GM made a big deal out of not mixing their Dexcool (propylene) with conventional ethanol antifreeze. Those that did top theirs off with the wrong coolant ended up with very clotted ateries!

I would love to find written or official confirmation somewhere that these sleds are factory filled with propylene. I can't imagine Yamaha would just sort of mention it at one tech school, yet not bother putting in in writing somewhere (service manuals, tech bulletins?) to assist all their mechanics.
Click to expand...

Since the density of propylene glycol is quite a bit lower than ethylene glycol, one test to figure out if propylene is used could be to use a density based ethylene glycol coolant tester and see what it says.

A 60% propylene glycol concentration mixed with 40% water has a density of 1045 kg/m^3 at room temperature. To get the same density, an ethylene glycol and water mix needs 30% ethylene glycol/70% water.

This means a standard density based ethylene glycol tester should erroneously read a 30/70 mix when measuring a 60/40 mix of propylene glycol and water.

BTW, my understanding is DexCool is primarily ethylene glycol based. What potentially makes it incompatible with some other antifreeze is the additive package.
 
Man this thread is going nowhere but in circles...

One person, CaptnAttak, on his 4th post on this site, has asserted that Yamaha has switched to Propylene Glycol on their new sleds based on his tech school experience.

Now we're beginning to speculate why Yami made this change. My question is, how do we know for a fact that they actually made this change?

AGAIN, my printed 07 Yamaha manual specifies Ethylene Glycol, which is completely contrary to what he says Yamaha is installing.

I'm not at all trying to discredit him or say he's wrong. I have no idea. But he may have misunderstood, he may have had an instructor that misunderstood or misspoke, or one that was flat wrong. Or it might be 100% true and all of our Yamaha owners manuals have misprints.

Truth is, we sorta-kinda need to know what product is in there if we are going to be testing our antifreeze accurately, because they DO test differently.

CapnAttak is the FIRST mention of Prop Glycol being installed that I can remember in my history on this site. I'm simply interested in some sort of additional verification from Yamaha before we take one person's word as absolute fact over a printed Yamaha publication that we all have in our hands.
 
craze1cars, do you have a standard ethylene glycol antifreeze tester (not a refractometer) and your sled handy? See my post directly above yours.

If you do, test your coolant with it. If it comes up with roughly 30% antifreeze/70% water or poor freeze protection you'll know it's propylene glycol based.
 
ReX said:
craze1cars, do you have a standard ethylene glycol antifreeze tester (not a refractometer) and your sled handy? See my post directly above yours.

If you do, test your coolant with it. If it comes up with roughly 30% antifreeze/70% water or poor freeze protection you'll know it's propylene glycol based.
Click to expand...

Yes I do, but a very good one. I have an old NAPA temperature compensating specific gravity tester (the temperature of coolant has a huge effect on what the floating testers read....that's why those little ball testers are pretty much junk unless your coolant is exactly 70 degrees F...or whatever temp they happened to be calibrated for.)

And when I tested my new 07 Attak when I bought it home I had to heat the solution to about 150 degrees to get a reading, and it was still pegged. So I took about 40 ounces of the solution out, put 40 ounces of distilled water in, ran it for a long time, and then it tested at 55% glycol, 45% water. Then I did some Algebra and decided that taking 40 ounces of solution out and replacing with water meant that I had originally started with 85% Glycol, 15% water. So I called 55/45 good enough for me, and that's how it now sits. Of course this was all based on the assumption I was working with Ethylene Glycol.

So based on all that info....what kind of coolant do I have?
 
I'm Looking at the "2006 Sowmobile Technical Update" Manual for Model RX10ML Mountain Apex and under Coolant Capacity (L) Type/Ratio it says.
6.4/ Aluminum compatible ethylene glycol silicate free/ 60/40. I checked mine this year and it was off the chart. Added 2 quarts water and checked after first ride and it says good to -30F.
 
craze1cars said:
ReX said:
craze1cars, do you have a standard ethylene glycol antifreeze tester (not a refractometer) and your sled handy? See my post directly above yours.

If you do, test your coolant with it. If it comes up with roughly 30% antifreeze/70% water or poor freeze protection you'll know it's propylene glycol based.
Click to expand...

Yes I do, but a very good one. I have an old NAPA temperature compensating specific gravity tester (one large floating bulb) from my auto mechanics days. (the temperature of coolant has a huge effect on what the floating testers read....that's why those little ball testers are pretty much junk unless your coolant is exactly 70 degrees F...or whatever temp they happened to be calibrated for.)

And when I tested my new 07 Attak when I bought it home I had to heat the solution to about 150 degrees to get a reading, and it was still pegged. So I took about 40 ounces of the solution out, put 40 ounces of distilled water in, ran it for a long time, and then it tested at 55% glycol, 45% water. Then I did some Algebra and decided that taking 40 ounces of solution out and replacing with water meant that I had originally started with 85% Glycol, 15% water. So I called it good and that's how it sits. All based on the assumption I was working with Ethylene Glycol.

So based on all that info. What kind of coolant do I have?
Click to expand...

You definitely don't have Propylene Glycol that's for sure. Take a look at the chart on page 3 of this document:

http://www.mrc-eng.com/Downloads/Brine Properties.pdf

If the density of your coolant was equivalent to 85% Ethylene Glycol/15% water, it would be well over 1.1 kg/m^3 at room temperature - extrapolating from the graph it would be something like 1.13 kg/m^3.

On page 6 of the same document you can see that it's impossible for the density of a Propylene Glycol/water mix to ever see a density that high so it can't be a Propylene Glycol mix.
 
Wholly Smoke ! I didn't know what a can of worms I was opening up. At the very least , it seems that Yamaha is making sure that their coolant won't freeze at -40 C. Being too strong, might gel, is another matter. It seems that I'm going to have to confirm this issue by contacting our service rep. Yes, I'm human (most of the time) I might have misunderstood the informtion. Please don't hold it against me. I will see if our rep can put things in writing or provide some kind of proof. It might take a couple of days to get hold of him., when I do I will post what I find out. :o|
 
MrSled said:
The floater type meter is not accurate. You need a special tool and I know Yamaha's mix is 60/40. Many dealers have challenged this and with a refractometer you will see its correct with in a few small %.
Click to expand...

So your saying every needle type float tester is giving TOTALLY incorrect results. I find that very hard to believe. I understand by their very nature they would be hard pressed to show the difference between 60/40 and say 55/45, but you can't tell me when they read 100% a refractometer would show it at 60/40.
 
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