Apex gear testing result

[ROCKERDAN]

Personally Id never go that tall.....unless you want to hit and trash something eventually...

with a ripsaw i see even the 1.325s scraping the exhaust......cant see how the taller ones wont hit.

your best bet IMO is always to go lower lug track with solid finger like predator(the ripsaw fingers bend over)

Ive always run 1 inch tracks(predators) with 1.175 studs...on every mach ive ever owned,so i also run this on my apex...cant beat it IMO.

Dan

 

[SharkAttak]

Personally Id never go that tall.....unless you want to hit and trash something eventually...

with a ripsaw i see even the 1.325s scraping the exhaust......cant see how the taller ones wont hit.

your best bet IMO is always to go lower lug track with solid finger like predator(the ripsaw fingers bend over)

Ive always run 1 inch tracks(predators) with 1.175 studs...on every mach ive ever owned,so i also run this on my apex...cant beat it IMO.

Dan

yeah, those 1.450 are tall,but the 1.325 just spin they don't bite well enough anything else i can do

 

[SledFreak]

You just need to add 1/4" to the tunnel protectors. 1.325 does have enough penetration on a Ripsaw. My buddies F1000 has 1" Hacksaw with 150 1.175 Megs and he's got nothing on me, especially out of the hole and he should because he has a bigger footprint. Plus he has y-pipe mod and bullseye added as well as D&D clutching. I'll put my setup against yours any day of the week, especially on hardpack. My sled rocks out of the hole. Most guys that i have talked to that hit the 120+ mark all run the stock ripsaw.

 

[SharkAttak]

You just need to add 1/4" to the tunnel protectors. 1.325 does have enough penetration on a Ripsaw. My buddies F1000 has 1" Hacksaw with 150 1.175 Megs and he's got nothing on me, especially out of the hole and he should because he has a bigger footprint. Plus he has y-pipe mod and bullseye added as well as D&D clutching. I'll put my setup against yours any day of the week, especially on hardpack. My sled rocks out of the hole. Most guys that i have talked to that hit the 120+ mark all run the stock ripsaw.

where do you get the 1/4" tunnel protector? and how's it mounted to the existing?

 

[KnappAttack]

I wouldn't add to the tunnel protectors. They already don't have enough clearance. I also wouldn't run the longer studs. I don't even run studs anymore with the Iceripper XT I use.

Here are a dozen or so facts I have found over the years. Will give you something to think about.
1. Longer studs flex over and let go of the bite on the ice (think cat claw).
2. Track hitting tunnel protectors robs top speed.
3. Adding more studs robs top speed.
4. Single hole washers don't hook as good as double hole backers.
5. Double hole backers introduce loads of vibration in a Yamaha Four-Stroke.
6. Gearing down always multiplies torque to the drive axel and will increase acceleration.
7. Gearing up will help with top speed on ice, (puts belt in more efficient clutch area for top speed).
8. The quicker you get there, the slower you'll be going at the end, (drag racing).
9. The slower you get there, the faster you will be traveling at the end, (speed running).
10. When it comes to studs, less is best, length and amount. Only run what you have to for traction to get the job done.
11. More is not always better, unless it comes to power.
12. Someone is always going to be faster than you, (unless you're me.--- LOL)
13. Never believe what you hear or see, Its up to you to try things to see what works and what doesn't.


PS. SharkAttak, I have a track that will hook with 144 stud pattern. You wouldn't like how it vibrates however. Pattern and traction lines is everything. You don't need longer studs, you need a better pattern with backers snugged hard against the lug to keep the flex down to a minnimum.

 

[ROCKERDAN]

Mike....

I 100% agree with all you say.....I always run 1 inch tracks,with only 96 1.175 gold diggers....and still havent found one apex that can run near me on top end....I can only attribute that to either my track,ramair or good clutching...but my guess is its my track with light studding.

the ripsaw can get me outa the hole by maybe 2 lengths,but i go by every other apex so fast after that its like they hit the brakes....

Im guessing 3-5mph on top end faster....this is why im keeping this sled.

It was fast before I did anything to it .....but the track was on it from day one....ramair,clutching,and now pc3/ign module only making it faster from day one.

Dan

 

[SharkAttak]

I wouldn't add to the tunnel protectors. They already don't have enough clearance. I also wouldn't run the longer studs. I don't even run studs anymore with the Iceripper XT I use.

Here are a dozen or so facts I have found over the years. Will give you something to think about.
1. Longer studs flex over and let go of the bite on the ice (think cat claw).
2. Track hitting tunnel protectors robs top speed.
3. Adding more studs robs top speed.
4. Single hole washers don't hook as good as double hole backers.
5. Double hole backers introduce loads of vibration in a Yamaha Four-Stroke.
6. Gearing down always multiplies torque to the drive axel and will increase acceleration.
7. Gearing up will help with top speed on ice, (puts belt in more efficient clutch area for top speed).
8. The quicker you get there, the slower you'll be going at the end, (drag racing).
9. The slower you get there, the faster you will be traveling at the end, (speed running).
10. When it comes to studs, less is best, length and amount. Only run what you have to for traction to get the job done.
11. More is not always better, unless it comes to power.
12. Someone is always going to be faster than you, (unless you're me.--- LOL)
13. Never believe what you hear or see, Its up to you to try things to see what works and what doesn't.


PS. SharkAttak, I have a track that will hook with 144 stud pattern. You wouldn't like how it vibrates however. Pattern and traction lines is everything. You don't need longer studs, you need a better pattern with backers snugged hard against the lug to keep the flex down to a minnimum.

thanks Mike, if you'll share that pattern, i'd like to try it

 

[BADSLED]

You should be running 1.450. 1.325 will only make it spin. 1.450 gives 1/2" + penetration. You lucky to get 5/16 or less out of 1.325

I couldn't agree more...

 

[SledFreak]

Mike....

I 100% agree with all you say.....I always run 1 inch tracks,with only 96 1.175 gold diggers....and still havent found one apex that can run near me on top end....I can only attribute that to either my track,ramair or good clutching...but my guess is its my track with light studding.

the ripsaw can get me outa the hole by maybe 2 lengths,but i go by every other apex so fast after that its like they hit the brakes....

Im guessing 3-5mph on top end faster....this is why im keeping this sled.

It was fast before I did anything to it .....but the track was on it from day one....ramair,clutching,and now pc3/ign module only making it faster from day one.

Dan

Dan you ever race anyone other than on ice and see those same outcomes that you talk about. I know a 1" track will give better top end and 1.175 on a Predator does gives good penetration, but I still believe you can pull good top end on a ripsaw. John Wheellock pulls 121-122 on his Attack with the stock clutch and Matt from the speed shop pulled 123 on his RTX and Allen Ulmer pulls 123 in the 1/4 mile with an Apex. It can be done. Just different ways to get there. On another note... You also were not to optimistic on the 23 top gear as well when it was first talked about. If I remember correctly you thought that it would not pull better on ice than the stock 24 on ice.


Mike, I agree that less studs = more top end. I don't agree with your track pattern. You would not gain many more scratch lines you would be re-arranging the studs, assuming he is only studding the inside belt.

Bottom line is this... 1.325 on a ripsaw does give enough penetration. I would rather go with a predator track and go with a 1.75 stud which would produce a good penetration (1/2" I believe) then use 1.325 on a Ripsaw. There's always more than one way to skin a cat.

1.450 and 144 works for me.

 

[KnappAttack]

1.325 woodys using woodys backers already hit the tunnel. Why on earth would you want longer than this is beyond me. All longer studs do is hit the tunnel harder and flex over allowing more spin. Studding the center bely only will never allow decent traction. Traction lines is not everything either, pattern is just as important. You don't want a v pattern like I see on all these templates. V patterns encourage spin and make the machine skate out, or J-Hook when it spins, and it spins more than you think.

Bottom line is this - Using shorter and less studs is best. Getting by with the least = more acceleration and speed.

If you think you need to run longer, then the pattern and setup is all wrong. Long studs flex over and rob you of traction, not add.

They used to laugh at me in tech every year because my studs were never as long as what was allowed, (3/4" over the top of the lug or cleat). Other guys would push it to the max. All you have to do is look who was in the winners circle. I ran the backer against the lug hard so the stud sat @ an angle like a cat claw, digging into the ice. I ran maximum scratch lines with backers that didn't fall into the proceeding rut if it did spin. Think of it as a 15" chain saw. If it did spin it dug a 15" wide rut into the ice. Now you can't do this on these trail sleds because of the tunnel protectors. But you can get a much better pattern than the templates floating around out there. I ran 162 studs in the belting and 96 in the hooker plates and could transfer about 245 HP down the track in 5.25 seconds in 660 feet. When I'd go speed running, I'd only run 72 studs in the belting and 96 studs in the hookers.

 

[ROCKRTX]

1.325 woodys using woodys backers already hit the tunnel. Why on earth would you want longer than this is beyond me. All longer studs do is hit the tunnel harder and flex over allowing more spin. Studding the center bely only will never allow decent traction. Traction lines is not everything either, pattern is just as important. You don't want a v pattern like I see on all these templates. V patterns encourage spin and make the machine skate out, or J-Hook when it spins, and it spins more than you think.

Bottom line is this - Using shorter and less studs is best. Getting by with the least = more acceleration and speed.

If you think you need to run longer, then the pattern and setup is all wrong. Long studs flex over and rob you of traction, not add.

They used to laugh at me in tech every year because my studs were never as long as what was allowed, (3/4" over the top of the lug or cleat). Other guys would push it to the max. All you have to do is look who was in the winners circle. I ran the backer against the lug hard so the stud sat @ an angle like a cat claw, digging into the ice. I ran maximum scratch lines with backers that didn't fall into the proceeding rut if it did spin. Think of it as a 15" chain saw. If it did spin it dug a 15" wide rut into the ice. Now you can't do this on these trail sleds because of the tunnel protectors. But you can get a much better pattern than the templates floating around out there. I ran 162 studs in the belting and 96 in the hooker plates and could transfer about 245 HP down the track in 5.25 seconds in 660 feet. When I'd go speed running, I'd only run 72 studs in the belting and 96 studs in the hookers.

Mike,can you show us that stud pattern you hare talking, it seem to be a killer one

I ran the backer against the lug hard so the stud sat @ an angle like a cat claw, digging into the ice.

Do you think angle backer are a good alternative?

 

[SledFreak]

Angle backers work great for accleration and suck for stopping.

 

[Randy J Beyer]

Mike Knapp what works drag racing dont always work
on the trail sleds because of our varying conditions !

Racing on properly prepared ice tracks are pretty much
the same and you know before you get there what to expect.

Hard Ice, Soft ice, Bare ice ect.... its all ice!

My 06 Apex GT has 1.450 studs, single aluminum plates,
extended T nuts with 3000 miles in a 4-2 pattern that
makes use of as many scatch lines as
possible but does not place stud real close
to any edge except for closed window edges.

This pattern works well and no stud has hit anywhere in the tunnel !
My tunnel protectors are stock and not shimmed !

All stud patterns make somewhat of V pattern as soon
as you start to stagger the studs.

The key is make sure you v type pattern is facing the right way.

V - type pattern that face the wrong way will create
Vabirations, Spinning, J- hooking, improper balance,
loose traction, bad handling ect...

Sometimes by removing the track and turning it around
you can turn a track that sucks into a great ride, great traction,
and great handling ! You wont know its the same track.

Also by turning it around you make use of the lug design
for braking to help propel the sled forward!

Less studs that get the job done is always best no question.

Pentration in the trail is much more important under
varying conditions say on ice covered hard pack!

Hardpack on lake is another condition where stud
pentration is important !

Turned up soft snow and its all about lug height with soft
engaugement ! Conditions matter !

Double Backers, Angled Double Backers should be used
only for drag racing and is not and I repeat
is not the studding of choice for trail sleds.

If you stick with Woody's Carbide because of shoulder design
that has proper clearance between the plate and stud head,
heavy duty round aluminum plates, and the extended nuts to stop
the flexing of the stud under stress you wont be disappointed!

Yes you can and need to use the outside bands but
do not and I repeat do not place a stud close to any
edge other than a closed window.

Also outside bands should be every other only so you
dont lose handling around the turns !

Yes you stagger outside bands also!

You stick to a balanced properly studded track and you will have
miles of enjoyment and not only good hole shots, great braking also!

Mike Knapp your new track may be the wave of the future
and do like what I see so far !

Keep us informed on what you think as time goes by and
you get more miles on it ?

You are right about one thing Glad we dont have to race you ! LOL

 

[SharkAttak]

Mike, could you put a pic of the stud pattern you talking about?

 

[SharkAttak]

Randy, so you saying on your machine your running 1.450 studs with no extra tunnel protection and you don't hit? even over rough trails? i'd like to see a pic of your tunnel