Arrow skis verses Simmons pictures

[Grimm]

Recently, I sent Kimpex, an email thanking them for designing such a great ski. Here is the email I sent and the response I received. Those who feel the same, should try the same thing and get the word out on designing a wider version of the ski. I can't even believe I received a response, especially a genuine one considerating it and not just a form letter.

Courriel de Kimpex.com
NAME : Gary
EMAIL :
CITY : Ottawa
PROVINCE/STATE : Ontario
COUNTRY : Canada

MESSAGE : I love my Kimpex Arrow skis...please design a wider off trail version...I guarantee more sales. I want to thank the individuals responsible for the design of these skis. I've tried Skidoo Pilots, Yamaha Stockers, Slydog Trails, C&A Outlaws and the Arrow ski is my favourite. It has great bite in the corners, zero tracking problems and affordable. It just needs to be wider to perform in the deeper stuff. Please let me know if a wider ski is in the works.

Thanks
Gary


Thanks Gary !!

Michel Côté

V.P. Sales/V.P. Ventes

Thank you for your good comments on our Arrow ski.

Unfortunately we do not have right now a wider version but it is a very good idea. I’ll transfer this request to our R&D department.


5355 St-Roch Street
Drummondville, QC
Phone/Tel # (819) 472-1343 Ext/poste: 2235
Fax/Telecopieur # (819) 472-5399

michel.cote@kimpex.com

www.kimpex.com

 

[BETHEVIPER]

Keep in mind too, when I am complaining about the Arrow skis width, I am complaining about the width of the stock ski as well, they are the same foot print. Glad you liked them. Friend of mine loves his arrows on his nitro. They would be even better with a wider edge raised up like a slp or triple threat.

 

[BETHEVIPER]

What did you set toe at on the nitro. They need no toe out or little.

 

[Grimm]

I set it at toe out of 1/4".

 

[Crewchief47]

Dad Loved his Arrows in Muni last weekend.

 

[ROCKRTX]

I order a set of Arrow with 4" carbide and should receive today.

How do you set them? shimmed in the back?

Betheviper what is you carbide mod i saw i a post with those ski?

 

[Grimm]

I didn't have to shim mine. They seem to be just right.

 

[ROCKRTX]

I didn't have to shim mine. They seem to be just right.

Do you have 4" or 6" carbide? what brand?

I order royaldistributing package with 4" jagged edge carbide and don't know how much bite they have?

 

[BETHEVIPER]

the mod was that I used one 4 and one 6in carbide, the carbides used differnt size host bars so it made the skis set uneven. I wanted to ride the things so I just shimmed down the thinner carbide.
I would use 6in shaper bars on both for the next set.

 

[Grimm]

I've found that the Jagged Edge carbides are quite worn down on mine already. They originally were 60 degrees, but they look more like they're 90 degrees now, after only a few hundred miles.

 

[ROCKRTX]

Probably finish the season with stock Arrow skis carbide and changed next year.

the option i found

2 pair of 6" shaper bar
or
2 pair of woody's executive bar 8"

What would be the best?

 

[Grimm]

I've had rather good luck with shapers...I'll go with them next year.

 

[Sasquatch]

simmons are not wider when you need them, they narrow up the sled 5inches in a corner as they shift the weight from the outside to the inside carbide. this gives the effect of narrowing the sled by 5in compared to a standard center carbide ski.

I thought about this and rode my sled on our trip. Your looking at this wrong. When turning hard left or right the Simmons do lift the outside carbide way off the snow. So your theory is sound!

In practice however you never turn more then a few degrees to corner the sled. Add to that the geometry of the suspension which changes the angle of the spindle when you corner. As the weight of the sled leans over onto the outside ski the top of the spindle moves outward canceling out any lift of the outside carbide.

So other then slow speed turning both carbides are on the snow. At any speed at all where a wider front stance is needed or wanted you never turn hard enough to lift the outside carbide.

So the Simmons do widen the front end even in a corner. They do not narrow at any time other then slow speed hard turns where wider stance is not an issue. So the Simmons are wider when you need them. Your math is wrong as well it could not narrow the stance from center by 5 inches. The best it could narrow is about 3.5 because the ski's are 7 inches wide.

They made a huge difference in the handling of my sled and your comment about narrowing the stance of the sled puzzled me. I knew that by adding them my outside ski lift reduced to the point of being controllable in a corner. As I watched in a corner a few days ago the outside carbide was throwing a plume of snow out from the front of the outside carbide. No different then when going in a straight line.

Your comment made me think how could that be? Was I dreaming it? How come when I checked my tracks on hard pack in the corners there where two well defined carbide tracks? This could not be happening then if indeed the inside carbide was lifting.

The down side of the Simmons is you need larger arms because of increased steering effort on hard pack trail. In fresh snow they will push in the corner because the design of the ski floats the carbides.

The pluses are 7 inch wider ski stance. Less inside ski lift at trail speed and floatation off trail.

 

[BETHEVIPER]

simmons are not wider when you need them, they narrow up the sled 5inches in a corner as they shift the weight from the outside to the inside carbide. this gives the effect of narrowing the sled by 5in compared to a standard center carbide ski.

I thought about this and rode my sled on our trip. Your looking at this wrong. When turning hard left or right the Simmons do lift the outside carbide way off the snow. So your theory is sound!

In practice however you never turn more then a few degrees to corner the sled. Add to that the geometry of the suspension which changes the angle of the spindle when you corner. As the weight of the sled leans over onto the outside ski the top of the spindle moves outward canceling out any lift of the outside carbide.

So other then slow speed turning both carbides are on the snow. At any speed at all where a wider front stance is needed or wanted you never turn hard enough to lift the outside carbide.

So the Simmons do widen the front end even in a corner. They do not narrow at any time other then slow speed hard turns where wider stance is not an issue. So the Simmons are wider when you need them. Your math is wrong as well it could not narrow the stance from center by 5 inches. The best it could narrow is about 3.5 because the ski's are 7 inches wide.

They made a huge difference in the handling of my sled and your comment about narrowing the stance of the sled puzzled me. I knew that by adding them my outside ski lift reduced to the point of being controllable in a corner. As I watched in a corner a few days ago the outside carbide was throwing a plume of snow out from the front of the outside carbide. No different then when going in a straight line.

Your comment made me think how could that be? Was I dreaming it? How come when I checked my tracks on hard pack in the corners there where two well defined carbide tracks? This could not be happening then if indeed the inside carbide was lifting.

The down side of the Simmons is you need larger arms because of increased steering effort on hard pack trail. In fresh snow they will push in the corner because the design of the ski floats the carbides.

The pluses are 7 inch wider ski stance. Less inside ski lift at trail speed and floatation off trail.

you are riding down the (hard)trail on your simmons, thinking to yourself how proud you are that you bought skis and got a wider ski stance for free (7inches because you cant measure). You got this imaginary messurement by measuring the outide carbides that your sleds weight sits on. As you start into a corner your outside carbide starts to lift shifting the weight to the inside carbide of the outside ski which is a tiny bit over 5inches inside(narrower)the outside carbide. You may find that on a gradual corner on hard pack that the outside carbide touches but the true weight of the sled is transfered to the carbide closest to the ground, the inside carbide.

As for your front end rolling over in a corner making the outside carbide touch, it is still rolling over the inside carbide that has the most pressure on it. Also, if the corner is this gradual, the extra width is not needed. Extra width is only needed in hard corners.

Please dont use the tape measure you gave your wife to measure your you know what. The skis are only 6inches wide unless you have some newer version that I didn't know existed. The carbides are not on the outer edges, I believe they end up around 5.25 wide at the carbide so I rounded down, you on the other hand rouned up to 7inches, like most men do when they are bragging about legnth and width. It was warm in the shop when I took this picture so there was no "Shrinkage".
http://www.ty4stroke.com/files/thumbs/t ... 11_180.jpg

Because most of our sledding is on some crushable snow, these skis work great in corners most of the time but not because the outside carbide has weight on it. Its because of the cupping effect of the bottom of the ski packing section of snow to grab onto.

I am glad my information got you thinking about geometry while riding your sled, that was my intent, not enough people think of why something is, they just ride and enjoy themselves, just riding for the fun and enjoyment of it

P.S. I wont tell your wife about your tape messure

 

[TechMaples]

Keep in mind too, when I am complaining about the Arrow skis width, I am complaining about the width of the stock ski as well, they are the same foot print. Glad you liked them. Friend of mine loves his arrows on his nitro. They would be even better with a wider edge raised up like a slp or triple threat.

Put the keel of the arrow on the slp powder pro, then you have, quite possibly, the perfect ski.

My only complaint about the arrow is that is some conditions, when ridden overly hard, they tend to push in the corners. But most skis push when pushed hard enough. I will stick with powder pros until a wider arrow comes out.