Canadians & battery

[Doc Harley]

I'm going on season #8 with the original battery. Turned on ignition and the display showed 11.3v. It's time.
I look to you guys as I know you are battle tested, riding in the harshes environment.
Most of your days start & ride in the sub 0°F temps.
So, which battery keeps you guys going?
Thank you..... Joe
Note: looking at Earth X etz14c. Does it require a special charger?

 

[earthling]

All modern LiFePo4 or Li-Ion batteries have BMS circuits built in so technically no, you don't absolutely need a special charger but you should use one that has a lithium mode built in because they are more aware of the charging profile of a lithium cell and will protect the battery against thermal issues, they also have a lower float voltage in lithium mode which will prolong the batteries life but note: External chargers are passing voltage and current through the built in BMS of the lithium (lifepo4 or li-Ion), it is a belt and suspenders approach to charging. Most of the hysteria you read online about special chargers is due to the limitation of raw lithium cells, not a cell or cell pack behind the built in BMS. I use Noco chargers and I have dedicated Lithium cell chargers left over from robotics experiments.

The circuit board in the below cutaway is the smart charger that is built-in to the battery. The job of the BMS is to limit voltage, switch between constant current charging and voltage charging, balance voltage across cells, and to manage discharge/charge during extreme temperatures/conditions. The batteries are meant to run off of the voltage levels coming from the alternator/regulator so 14.6-7v which ultimately has to be reduced to 3.2~3.65v for each cell depending on its charge state. Shorai which a lot of people assume does not have a BMS because they have a separate balance port, does have one because in reality it could not operate without one.

The only problem with all of the Lithium based batteries is their cold weather performance. They have to have extreme weather protection built in for both charge and discharge states, don't buy a lithium battery that does not have this protection. The better BMS systems would reduce charge current below 0c and cut it again in half below -10c so any battery that claims operating temperatures below -10c have to have cold weather protection or they simply will not work. Earthx claims that they can keep charging at up to -32c. Yes, but TANSTAAFL - the charge rate (current) will be so low as to be near pointless in pragmatic terms, luckily batteries don't stay that cold except in the most extreme conditions.

Simply keying on your sled will start to warm up the battery, while your sled is running it is charging the battery which also keeps it warm. If you ever run into a problem with the battery due to cold weather you only have to warm it up to bring it back up to useful starting voltages (if you have not drained it completely).

In terms of capacity (depth of discharge), the manufacturer will rate them on the side of the battery. If you are comparing batteries look for capacity first, physical size is a bonus. A lead acid battery can be discharged up to 50% of its rated capacity, an AGM up to 80% (depending on age), and a LifePo4 up to 95%. Another consideration is the capacity of the battery over multiple discharges. A lifepo4 will outlast an equivalent AGM by almost double.

I like the earthx and Noco batteries, I know a few others on the site run the Shorai with good results as well.

 

[Doc Harley]

God man!! You're level of explanation is beyond extreme, yet always helpful. Lol.

Thanks, earthing

I'm looking at another battery as well. I'll check it vs the information you provided.

 

[Doc Harley]

Would you please take a moment to give me your analysis on this product
TYKOOL YTX20L-BS YTX20HL-BS Lithium LiFePO4 Motorcycle Battery,12V 12Ah,600CCA,Built in BMS,Powersports Battery,for ATV, UTV,Jet Ski,Personal Watercraft, Snowmobile,Quad, Riding Lawn Mower, Tractor https://a.co/d/bNYn4BG

 

[KnappAttack]

I'm going on season #8 with the original battery. Turned on ignition and the display showed 11.3v. It's time.
I look to you guys as I know you are battle tested, riding in the harshes environment.
Most of your days start & ride in the sub 0°F temps.
So, which battery keeps you guys going?
Thank you..... Joe
Note: looking at Earth X etz14c. Does it require a special charger?

jt,
The Earth X etz14c would be a good choice as its designed for the cold. It should have a different charger yes. Before you buy any Lithium lightweight battery, check the fine print to make CERTAIN it doesn't have a BMS that shuts off in the cold weather for protection.
You can't run a NOCO lithium battery or any battery that has a BMS that shuts down in the cold. You WILL blow the regulator and wreck havoc on the machine! It will ruin a trip!


I ran a Shorai 20 battery for 8 seasons on different snow machines and never once charged it at any point other than on the snowmobile. I had trouble starting the old 1200 Doo with it in the cold, but the winder was no problem. I paid $170 for it years ago. I just bought another Shorai to replace it and did buy the special charger for it that goes into the special port. No problem starting the winder in any cold weather conditions Bought the larger 24 Shorai battery this time, if I recall it was around $135.00

I also bought a NOCO lithium for my motorcycle and bought the special charger for it. Id never try to run it in a snowmobile tower as we know from experience here that it will not work in a snowmobile. The BMS in it WILL kill the regulator and wreck havoc on the winder in the cold. Love it in my GoldWing however! Spins over twice as fast as a lead acid battery. The NOCO was cheap on EBAY at less than $100 for a size 20. Cheaper I found than a Yuasa lead battery.

 

[Doc Harley]

jt,
The Earth X etz14c would be a good choice as its designed for the cold. It should have a different charger yes. Before you buy any Lithium lightweight battery, check the fine print to make CERTAIN it doesn't have a BMS that shuts off in the cold weather for protection.
You can't run a NOCO lithium battery or any battery that has a BMS that shuts down in the cold. You WILL blow the regulator and wreck havoc on the machine! It will ruin a trip!


I ran a Shorai 20 battery for 8 seasons on different snow machines and never once charged it at any point other than on the snowmobile. I had trouble starting the old 1200 Doo with it in the cold, but the winder was no problem. I paid $170 for it years ago. I just bought another Shorai to replace it and did buy the special charger for it that goes into the special port. No problem starting the winder in any cold weather conditions Bought the larger 24 Shorai battery this time, if I recall it was around $135.00

I also bought a NOCO lithium for my motorcycle and bought the special charger for it. Id never try to run it in a snowmobile tower as we know from experience here that it will not work in a snowmobile. The BMS in it WILL kill the regulator and wreck havoc on the winder in the cold. Love it in my GoldWing however! Spins over twice as fast as a lead acid battery. The NOCO was cheap on EBAY at less than $100 for a size 20. Cheaper I found than a Yuasa lead battery.

I will add the shorai 20 to my very short list. I like the idea of going to the correct lithium battery, as I'm too old & tired to deal with problems.
I like the price point of the Noco and wanted one for my bike. it was during covid and one could not be had. Definitely wouldn't want to try one of those at -30°

Thanks Mike!

 

[sideshowBob]

I have been using an EarthX battery in my Apex for many years, since they were first released, and I also have an EarthX battery in my Sidewinder and my Wife's 600 VMax. These are the snowmobile specific batteries. I use a lithium specific battery charger and have never had an issues with any of these batteries.

 

[Doc Harley]

Mike, I see, they offer the Shorai #24. Is there any fitment issues?
Price went up a bit.....$269.

 

[Fast Lane]

I just buy an AGM battery and replace it every 3-4 years. I replace it before it gets weak. I ride in the middle of nowhere sometimes and want the sled to start!!! A friend bought a NOCO and found out the hard way they do not work in the cold!!!! It was advertised for use in a snowmobile but around -5C they dont work.

 

[Doc Harley]

I just buy an AGM battery and replace it every 3-4 years. I replace it before it gets weak. I ride in the middle of nowhere sometimes and want the sled to start!!! A friend bought a NOCO and found out the hard way they do not work in the cold!!!! It was advertised for use in a snowmobile but around -5C they dont work.

That NOCO has a great price point. Probably wouldnt try 1 below 20°F Ty for your response...

 

[earthling]

jt,
The Earth X etz14c would be a good choice as its designed for the cold. It should have a different charger yes. Before you buy any Lithium lightweight battery, check the fine print to make CERTAIN it doesn't have a BMS that shuts off in the cold weather for protection.
You can't run a NOCO lithium battery or any battery that has a BMS that shuts down in the cold. You WILL blow the regulator and wreck havoc on the machine! It will ruin a trip!


I ran a Shorai 20 battery for 8 seasons on different snow machines and never once charged it at any point other than on the snowmobile. I had trouble starting the old 1200 Doo with it in the cold, but the winder was no problem. I paid $170 for it years ago. I just bought another Shorai to replace it and did buy the special charger for it that goes into the special port. No problem starting the winder in any cold weather conditions Bought the larger 24 Shorai battery this time, if I recall it was around $135.00

I also bought a NOCO lithium for my motorcycle and bought the special charger for it. Id never try to run it in a snowmobile tower as we know from experience here that it will not work in a snowmobile. The BMS in it WILL kill the regulator and wreck havoc on the winder in the cold. Love it in my GoldWing however! Spins over twice as fast as a lead acid battery. The NOCO was cheap on EBAY at less than $100 for a size 20. Cheaper I found than a Yuasa lead battery.

The primary advantage of the ETZ14c is the discharge circuit which is bypassed on the BMS. All LifePo4 batteries will warm up the instant you try to use them, typically 10c from baseline. Earthx has made the decision that the battery is not going to stay cold long because as soon as you start trying to use the battery under high draw it will quickly warm up. But any lifepo4 battery can be restored to full operations by simply using it or actively warming it up.

I do not understand how the BMS can kill a voltage regulator. When the sled is running, and if the BMS cold protection charging circuit is engaged, it is shunting current to heat to minimize the current the cells are exposed to. It does not add load to do this, the load is already there (the equivalent to the internal resistance of the batteries). On discharge, during startup the voltage regulator is not engaged at all.

 

[earthling]

Would you please take a moment to give me your analysis on this product
TYKOOL YTX20L-BS YTX20HL-BS Lithium LiFePO4 Motorcycle Battery,12V 12Ah,600CCA,Built in BMS,Powersports Battery,for ATV, UTV,Jet Ski,Personal Watercraft, Snowmobile,Quad, Riding Lawn Mower, Tractor https://a.co/d/bNYn4BG

Don't buy a cheap battery for use in extreme weather conditions, you are just asking for problems. Earthx makes a good battery that at least has considerations for extreme weather.

 

[earthling]

I just buy an AGM battery and replace it every 3-4 years. I replace it before it gets weak. I ride in the middle of nowhere sometimes and want the sled to start!!! A friend bought a NOCO and found out the hard way they do not work in the cold!!!! It was advertised for use in a snowmobile but around -5C they dont work.

I have a Noco in my bike, it gets started every month during the winter while it is in uninsulated storage, far below -5c. It works just fine. (shrug).

 

[Upstater57]

I use the stock cat battery and replace when needed. I also never leave the trailer without an emergency jump start kit.

 

[Doc Harley]

Don't buy a cheap battery for use in extreme weather conditions, you are just asking for problems. Earthx makes a good battery that at least has considerations for extreme weather.

Sometimes no name companies need to drive sales with a good price point.
It could very well utilize the same tech.
Battery claims 600cca @ $170us.
Maybe it's just something to consider?