Could use some help--Bender Stage II

[thinksnow]

I have been racking my head on this sled and I thought I had it all dialed in. I have a '03 RX-1 Mtn with a Bender Stage II. It ran great last year. We still don't have any snow here in ND so it is garage riding only. I have been tinkering with the sled waiting on snow (rider forward, other minor stuff). We have a trip next week out west and wouldn't you know it--PROBLEMS!!!

Here's the story. I start the sled and warm it up. Everything seems normal. It gets up to about 150D and then the crap begins. It starts to intermitantly puff smoke. It gives a puff waits and puffs again. It will do this for awhile and then turn to more and more smoke. After awhile, it will just smoke constantly. What has me totally confused is that it doesn't do it everytime.

I first thought that the seals must be bad on the turbo. I made sure that all the charge tube and intercooler were totally clean and free of oil. I started it and ran it until the engine warning light for overheating kicked on and shut it off. No smoke. Tonight I tried it again and it smoked once warm. I pulled the intercooler and checked the charge tube. No oil. That SHOULD mean that the seals are OK, right?

Is it an engine problem? I hear everyone talking about the crankcase breather and the correct routing. Where is this and where is a picture of the correct routing?

My return oil pump seems to be working. I pulled the line off at the top of the oil tank and oil pulses out. Should I try disconnecting it and see if it changes? I have a 50 jet restricter in the oil line. I had a 90 in it last year. Maybe I should go back???

PLEASE help me out with ANY ideas guys. I am totally sick about this. I was looking forward to riding my baby and having some fun finally! Now it looks like I should leave it home and take the old sled.

Sorry for the book, but I needed to vent a little.

Lance

 

[sledfvr]

Sounds like your crankcase breather vent is plugged. It is the hose that comes off under your carbs on the clutch side.

 

[sledfvr]

When I said plugged I really meant kinked. Make sure that it doesn't have any sharp bends in it. If that isn't it then check to see if you blew the fuse to the electric oil pump.

 

[Ted Jannetty]

I have been racking my head on this sled and I thought I had it all dialed in. I have a '03 RX-1 Mtn with a Bender Stage II. It ran great last year. We still don't have any snow here in ND so it is garage riding only. I have been tinkering with the sled waiting on snow (rider forward, other minor stuff). We have a trip next week out west and wouldn't you know it--PROBLEMS!!!

Here's the story. I start the sled and warm it up. Everything seems normal. It gets up to about 150D and then the crap begins. It starts to intermitantly puff smoke. It gives a puff waits and puffs again. It will do this for awhile and then turn to more and more smoke. After awhile, it will just smoke constantly. What has me totally confused is that it doesn't do it everytime.

I first thought that the seals must be bad on the turbo. I made sure that all the charge tube and intercooler were totally clean and free of oil. I started it and ran it until the engine warning light for overheating kicked on and shut it off. No smoke. Tonight I tried it again and it smoked once warm. I pulled the intercooler and checked the charge tube. No oil. That SHOULD mean that the seals are OK, right?

Is it an engine problem? I hear everyone talking about the crankcase breather and the correct routing. Where is this and where is a picture of the correct routing?

My return oil pump seems to be working. I pulled the line off at the top of the oil tank and oil pulses out. Should I try disconnecting it and see if it changes? I have a 50 jet restricter in the oil line. I had a 90 in it last year. Maybe I should go back???

PLEASE help me out with ANY ideas guys. I am totally sick about this. I was looking forward to riding my baby and having some fun finally! Now it looks like I should leave it home and take the old sled.

Sorry for the book, but I needed to vent a little.

Lance

Sounds like another NON Watercooled turbo failure.
Your not alone, many of these turbos are failing due to not water cooling of the bearing center section, we offer water line kits and a replacement turbo center sections on an exchange program.

Ted.

 

[mbarryracing]

Sounds like another NON Watercooled turbo failure.
Your not alone, many of these turbos are failing due to not water cooling of the bearing center section, we offer water line kits and a replacement turbo center sections on an exchange program.

Ted.

Ted,
Don't take this the wrong way as I don't intend to dispute your point about watercooling advantages, because I respect your experience and results. Nor am I trying to take away your sales...

But from a Rear Mount Turbo system perspective, lack of watercooling is NOT the reason for those center section failures...
The #1 failure we've seen is bearing overheat & seal damage resulted from OverBoosting or Overspeeding due to air leaks in the system (induction side).

The water ports on turbo center sections are for automotive type applications with high underhood temperatures in extreme conditions (like the desert) under continuous use, resulting in very hot housings . Something that rear mount trail snowmobiles, and most race machines, will never see.
However, the enviroment of a Front Mount application might necessitate use of watercooling in various situations. There is a different requirement there, not always CS reliablity. But here, I have no experience and therefore am not disputing.

There are 100's of Rear Mount turbo systems out there, running old oil systems (tanks, large oil restrictor jets, etc) and normal boost, with no issues. For fact there is an old Bender system with over 10k miles on it with no issues and the turbo has never been serviced.

Turbos have no mechanical speed limiting abilities, they rely on a pressure sensing diaphram and spring. If there are leaks in the system, or worse case the airbox or couplings get blown off, the turbo overspeeds to overcome / compensate for the drop in boost (restriction). This, in turn, heats the bearings and causes loss of the oil barrier. All a turbo knows is it needs to spin faster (outside the curve) to build it's desired boost. Proven in Tractor Pulling...

Ganted watercooling might prolong the inevitible, but it won't fix the damage due to overboosting or overspeeding. All depends how long or how many times the turbo bearings are exposed to this abuse.

The reason waterlines aren't sold with rear mount kits is it's an added cost that has been proven isn't required when setup properly. It also adds additional heat into the engine cooling system that is taxed with higher heat input from a higher HP engine.

 

[woodsrider]

Don't disconnect the return oil pump it will immediately fill the charge tube with oil. My brother put an extra port in the top of his oil tank just for the return oil line.

 

[Ted Jannetty]

#1 failure is bearing overheating & seal damage resulting from OverBoosting or Overspeeding due to blowoffs or leaks in the system...

[/i]

So wouldn't water cooling prevent overheating?

 

[mbarryracing]

#1 failure is bearing overheating & seal damage resulting from OverBoosting or Overspeeding due to blowoffs or leaks in the system...

[/i]

So wouldn't water cooling prevent overheating?

You'd think to some extent because it cools the housing that the bearing is inside, but really the "heat" that is destroying the bearings is inside the bearing itself as it flashes the oil where it contacts the running surfaces.
Bearing engineering 101.
Water cooling can't hurt, by any means, but will not eliminate overspeed / overboost damage that results in the oil puking turbos.
Consider spinning a rod or main bearing in an engine, the oil temp spikes but how much is the coolant preventing that? It absorbs some heat, but not enough and in the location of the damaging heat.
it's a fine line because you can't push more oil volume thru to force cool the bearing because you blow by the ring seals. You instead need to prevent the bearing from exceding it's safe speed.

 

[Ted Jannetty]

#1 failure is bearing overheating & seal damage resulting from OverBoosting or Overspeeding due to blowoffs or leaks in the system...

[/i]

So wouldn't water cooling prevent overheating?

You'd think to some extent because it cools the housing that the bearing is inside, but really the "heat" that is destroying the bearings is inside the bearing itself as it flashes the oil where it contacts the running surfaces.
Bearing engineering 101.
Water cooling can't hurt, by any means, but will not eliminate overspeed / overboost damage that results in the oil puking turbos.
Consider spinning a rod or main bearing in an engine, the oil temp spikes but how much is the coolant preventing that? It absorbs some heat, but not enough and in the location of the damaging heat.
it's a fine line because you can't push more oil volume thru to force cool the bearing because you blow by the ring seals. You instead need to prevent the bearing from exceding it's safe speed.

Your an intelligent man, I respect that.

Garrett designed it to have water running though it, I respect that.

It certainly can't hurt to go along with Garrett's Design.

They know more than both of us put together.

 

[mbarryracing]

Your an intelligent man, I respect that.

Garrett designed it to have water running though it, I respect that.

It certainly can't hurt to go along with Garrett's Design.

They know more than both of us put together.

Ah, this is true about Garrett no doubt.

Consider this though, there are many other OE applications with Garretts where the water jackets in the CS are not used. They use a common casting is for manufacturing benefits.
Take any of the air cooled engines for example (where's the coolant?). Porche and VW, etc, for many years have used turbos and don't puke oil. hmmm?

How about all the Subaru engines used in all the dune buggies out west? The dune buggy / sand car industry in Califonia dwarfs our little snow sport. They turbocharge and supercharge anything and everything. Alot of aircooled engines with Garretts, high boost, high HP and no oil smoke?



Ah, just food for thought to get you guys thinking "out of the box"...

Something for us to discuss over cold beers.

 

[mbarryracing]

Tonight I tried it again and it smoked once warm. I pulled the intercooler and checked the charge tube. No oil. That SHOULD mean that the seals are OK, right?


Lance

The oil is not being burned by the engine, reason your intercooler and charge tube are clean. The oil is weeping by the center section ring seals and into the exhaust housing / muffler. When the exhaust gets warm enough to burn the oil, it smokes. If you have a muffler with packing in it, it will smoke until all the oil is evaporated out of the packing.
Also probably getting into the compressor housing, check the tunnel cooler tube. It might not have gotten to the charge tube, yet.

Run it with the muffler off and look for oil in the exhaust housing. If you didn't do anything to the machine since you first noticed the smoking, it didn't fix itself and watercooling won't magically fix it either, you need a SC overhaul and find out why you overboosted the turbo before you "smoke" a new one...

Ted's water lines are a nice addition.