Does Yamaha Really Need a 2 Stroke??

[WillowAce]

I was talking to a person today who might know a little about Yamaha sleds, might even know the direction Yamaha will take in the years to come. No, even though I ask every time I see him he will not say anything about what might come. However, I might have hit a nerve today. His question was simple, "why did you buy a Polaris?" My answer was simple, I wanted to be competitive riding cross country again. My question was simple, "when are you going to build a fast revving 2 stroke and put it in an aggressive trail chassis?" The perturbed answer, as close as I can rephrase it, was this. The 4 stroke engine isn't the problem. The problem was how responsive it was to throttle, the sidewinder answered that. The 998 turbo is as or more responsive to throttle as any engine built today, more reliable, and at least twice the longevity. People complain about weight, wet weight is so close that it doesn't make a difference and could be identical if build quality was sacrificed and still be built as well as the sled you bought this year. That leaves handling as your complaint. It is hard to fit one chassis configuration to totally different engines and not give up something. Move the center of mass in the right direction, get the attack angle correct for steering and handling will be as good or better than any production snowmobile made. If you didn't know this you would quit asking me these questions.

With that said here is my guess as to what Yamaha will do. They will shrink the engine some, I'm thinking 170 class boosted HP, tweak the procross chassis to meet their needs but still be made by Arctic Cat and put smiles on our faces.

 

[sk-rx1]

I do not agree that wet weight is that close. But I do agree that the biggest issue is getting the weight in the right place, something the Yamaha motor in the Pro Cross does not come even close to.

 

[74Nitro]

I was talking to a person today who might know a little about Yamaha sleds, might even know the direction Yamaha will take in the years to come. No, even though I ask every time I see him he will not say anything about what might come. However, I might have hit a nerve today. His question was simple, "why did you buy a Polaris?" My answer was simple, I wanted to be competitive riding cross country again. My question was simple, "when are you going to build a fast revving 2 stroke and put it in an aggressive trail chassis?" The perturbed answer, as close as I can rephrase it, was this. The 4 stroke engine isn't the problem. The problem was how responsive it was to throttle, the sidewinder answered that. The 998 turbo is as or more responsive to throttle as any engine built today, more reliable, and at least twice the longevity. People complain about weight, wet weight is so close that it doesn't make a difference and could be identical if build quality was sacrificed and still be built as well as the sled you bought this year. That leaves handling as your complaint. It is hard to fit one chassis configuration to totally different engines and not give up something. Move the center of mass in the right direction, get the attack angle correct for steering and handling will be as good or better than any production snowmobile made. If you didn't know this you would quit asking me these questions.

With that said here is my guess as to what Yamaha will do. They will shrink the engine some, I'm thinking 170 class boosted HP, tweak the procross chassis to meet their needs but still be made by Arctic Cat and put smiles on our faces.

Interesting, thanks for that.
I like his comments, and I agree that moving that engine way down with better steering post angle would be great improvements. I also would like more leg room so I don't find my legs always pressed against the body panels.
I don't see any need to move the power down, that would be going backwards. Right now, the other manufacturers are scrambling to come up with 200hp without adding a bunch of weight. I don't see how it can be done with 2 stroke. They have to go Turbo 4 stroke.

 

[TPAY243]

Willow ace were do you race cross country? Christian Brothers has ran a ZR 7000 in USXC with great success. So the weight that you all are talking about must not be that far off. My Viper revs as fast as any Polaris 2 smoke. The pro cross is a very aggressive chassis with a very good record in cross country and snow cross racing. If Yamaha put in the effort that cat does they would be very competitive in cross country racing but they don't. I don't think there is a big market for racing these days. So what wins on Sunday doesn't sell on Monday like it did 10 years ago. Why would Yamaha come out with a machine with 20 less hp than a SideWinder? Everybody wants a 600,850,and a hyper sled that is not gonna happen. A properly set up Viper will run away from a 600 and will run with most 850,s

 

[blueironranger]

Having recently had the engine out of my Viper I think they would need to build a taller engine for it to sit lower in the chassis, or a drop/rolled chain case to shorten the distance between the belly pan and tunnel to allow the exhaust to still run the way it does. The Viper engine could drop down a good 3” but would need to be rotated forward for the exhaust to clear the tunnel/exchanger. It would lower the Center of Gravity at the cost of pushing the weight forward. Maybe a redesigned head where the exhaust port is angled upward at 45* instead straight out. Turning the head around would also cause the issues skidoo runs into, I think rear facing the exhaust ports are the right way to go.

 

[TPAY243]

Would you guys please explain why you think the motor must sit lower in the chassis.

 

[74Nitro]

Would you guys please explain why you think the motor must sit lower in the chassis.

Lower center of gravity.

 

[TPAY243]

Ya with out a doubt but does it need it no way if your having handling problems it is because of poor suspension set up. I follow my buddy through the woods on his new Ski Doo 850 xp c3po or what ever it is and that thing is all over the trail every corner the one ski is off the ground and in the straight away both skies are off of the ground it rides like carp and don't stick to the trail. I'm my opinion the Viper layes more flat and sticks to the trail and handel's a lot better and I don't see how lowering the motor s couple of inches will make it better.

 

[74Nitro]

I think the front end of the procross chassis and suspension is excellent and if the engine can be lowered it would be even more excellent.
If I was a manufacturer/engineer I would always be asking myself how can I make this better....?....and lowering the engine seems like a logical step.

 

[Turtle]

Yamaha needs a 160-ish hp sled that weighs 100lbs less than the current Viper or Sidewinder configuration. If they can do that with a 4-stroke (and not make it uber-expensive by using a carbon fiber chassis), then great! But I don't see that happening.

Yes, I have ridden sleds much lighter than my turbo Viper. And it is noticeable!!! Does that make my turbo Viper bad? - Absolutely not. But lighter IS better.

 

[WillowAce]

Ya with out a doubt but does it need it no way if your having handling problems it is because of poor suspension set up. I follow my buddy through the woods on his new Ski Doo 850 xp c3po or what ever it is and that thing is all over the trail every corner the one ski is off the ground and in the straight away both skies are off of the ground it rides like carp and don't stick to the trail. I'm my opinion the Viper layes more flat and sticks to the trail and handel's a lot better and I don't see how lowering the motor s couple of inches will make it better.

I agree with the flat cornering of the viper. I think it is how light the sled feels and perceived feel that lowering would address.

 

[WillowAce]

Willow ace were do you race cross country? Christian Brothers has ran a ZR 7000 in USXC with great success. So the weight that you all are talking about must not be that far off. My Viper revs as fast as any Polaris 2 smoke. The pro cross is a very aggressive chassis with a very good record in cross country and snow cross racing. If Yamaha put in the effort that cat does they would be very competitive in cross country racing but they don't. I don't think there is a big market for racing these days. So what wins on Sunday doesn't sell on Monday like it did 10 years ago. Why would Yamaha come out with a machine with 20 less hp than a SideWinder? Everybody wants a 600,850,and a hyper sled that is not gonna happen. A properly set up Viper will run away from a 600 and will run with most 850,s

Now I just play locally, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy handing the Braaap boys their breakfast.

What I think we might see is the 1049 go away in the sled lineup which means a NA 998 or a new displacement, say a 700 replace it, but in a boosted form. That would address some of the weight, keep the throttle response, and give midrange in a 600 class sled that would be better than the competitions 800 class sleds. On another note, it would also cure the insurance shock of the 1049.

 

[SaskAttack]

Lower is better, physics doesn't change. If you guys don't think there is a market for a "slightly" lower powered turbo, I would ask you to look at the success of a sled called 900T that skidoo makes. They sold something like 3 times as many as they thought they would and I bet the numbers keep going upward as its competitive with their 850 2stroke.
I love my Yamahas and like the addition of the Cat chassis but more changes are needed.

 

[74Nitro]

If there was ever a chance of the Phazer engine to live on, a turbo would do it. Stronger pistons and rods, and it should be capable of up to 130hp(600 class hp). That engine with turbo in the procross chassis shouldn't be too much heavier. That would be a cool package.

 

[74Nitro]

Lower is better, physics doesn't change. If you guys don't think there is a market for a "slightly" lower powered turbo, I would ask you to look at the success of a sled called 900T that skidoo makes. They sold something like 3 times as many as they thought they would and I bet the numbers keep going upward as its competitive with their 850 2stroke.
I love my Yamahas and like the addition of the Cat chassis but more changes are needed.

But its their only four stroke offering above 100hp. They would convert more Winder and T-cat riders if it was a one liter and 200 plus hp.