first off..Im 99% sure Yamaha never posts a H.P. number...for these exact reasons...
and for those who claim otherwise I bet if you read closely they will only quote others who claim certain power out of a motor..120 f.i, 150 f.i....but not h.p. (sure its implied)...
to me no dyno...or operator should be considered as anything but a tool...a tool of comparison...not the end all be all...
and tall the early INTELLIGENT reports said around 5% gain...if my recollection serves me...wasnt the apex true stock dyno numbers around 145? so 151-152 is right there....then take a machine like this....break it in ...put it in the hands of a tuner....and even if it wasnt said...the fact that it was, pre production, "tuned" and well broken in is telling...
for me the bigger issues are the studs...slide wear and possible handwarmer issues...
we all know this sled is a runner and with a bit of tweaking...even better...
sure theres some details which could have prevented confusion...
and for DTR, in hind sight Id bet more detail is corrected for future tests...
and for those who claim otherwise I bet if you read closely they will only quote others who claim certain power out of a motor..120 f.i, 150 f.i....but not h.p. (sure its implied)...
to me no dyno...or operator should be considered as anything but a tool...a tool of comparison...not the end all be all...
and tall the early INTELLIGENT reports said around 5% gain...if my recollection serves me...wasnt the apex true stock dyno numbers around 145? so 151-152 is right there....then take a machine like this....break it in ...put it in the hands of a tuner....and even if it wasnt said...the fact that it was, pre production, "tuned" and well broken in is telling...
for me the bigger issues are the studs...slide wear and possible handwarmer issues...
we all know this sled is a runner and with a bit of tweaking...even better...
sure theres some details which could have prevented confusion...
and for DTR, in hind sight Id bet more detail is corrected for future tests...
ecopter
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Just looked at my 2006 Yamaha Snowmobile Brochure. It clearly states the horsepower of each sled. So, they have done it in the past.
Jon
Jon
ecopter said:
Im aware they did so in the past...but many manufacturers of even outdoor equipment arent doing this in the last few years... I beleive there was a class action lawsuit that involved briggs and stratton, tecumseh and others...over actual H.P.
go walk into a lowes or home depot and look at the mowers and snowblowers etc....CC's yes...torque maybe....no H.P. anymore..
SledFreak
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Steve, I am in agreement here..... A tight 06-10 Genesis Motor stock out of the crate is 147ish, give or take a couple hp.... But, you could not gain any more hp with just a FC. But it seems you can with a 2011.... I believe this sled will be a 157hp (broke in)sled without a FC, but atleast we know this motor has some potential with some tuning.sj said:
It seems this sled will be a runner, so I think we need to let everyone figure out how to really make them run.... I think Yamaha in the future will need to come clean on the hp numbers of all of there models, becuase people will need to figure out what they are buying before they buy... If this is the way the industry is headed well then I guess we will have to guess what we are getting, but I don't seem to see the others doing this.... Cat has no problem with their claims.....
I am glad Jim stepped up and confirmed what we talked about on the phone.... I think we should all just move on from this..... It obviously has some hp, since it seems to be able to run with and/or beat a sled that is 140lbs lighter.
dirkdiggler
Suspended
The new apex makes ton more power then the old apex does. I've seen plenty of dyno sheets on the old apex and not one made 150 including modded apex's
All these posts on the new apex prove one thing to me. People have nothing better to do then complain!!!
All these posts on the new apex prove one thing to me. People have nothing better to do then complain!!!
SuperStroker!
Pro
jamesc said:
so you have that much faith in advertising? ever heard the phrase "believe half of what you see and none of what you hear"?
Me?
Faith in advertising?
Yah right!
I live by this phrase "believe nothing...they're all full of schitt"!
But that's me.
SuperStroker!
Pro
dirkdiggler said:
Why don't you just shut up and stop complaining about people complaining!
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Why dont all of you shut up... sick of this crap!! You want to fight take it someplace else!!
Cant ride a dyno...HP Junkies...LOL thats what makes a sled good right....LOL
you want results, go line em up!! I have done it and the 11 is now slouch.
I see one more of these posts go off the deep end, I will start kicking users off the site who cant have a civil discussion....
Maybe I am stupid too....or a a-hole or whatever...
You want place to talk right?? How about you do it like the guy is in the same room!!!
Cant ride a dyno...HP Junkies...LOL thats what makes a sled good right....LOL
you want results, go line em up!! I have done it and the 11 is now slouch.
I see one more of these posts go off the deep end, I will start kicking users off the site who cant have a civil discussion....
Maybe I am stupid too....or a a-hole or whatever...
You want place to talk right?? How about you do it like the guy is in the same room!!!
KnappAttack
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2017 Sidewinder LTX-LE
Well, there is weird stuff going on. The article on the Woodgate shootout sleds is gone. I know it was there a day or two ago.
Wonder whats up? I wanted to compare some Air/Fuel ratios.
Wonder whats up? I wanted to compare some Air/Fuel ratios.
Here is some food for thought:
If the so called dyno run on the 2011 was 153hp what was the run on the 2010 on the same dyno on the same day. Dynos margin of error can be as much as 10 to 15hp if no calibrated properly and some are just inaccurate more then others. If both a 2011 and 2010 Apex was within 1 hp on that same dyno and same day now I would be a little concerned... other then that I wouldn't think twice. You cant ride a dyno and dyno numbers are worthless unless you are looking for improvements over your base line pull on that day. If you want to compare HP numbers from sled to sled, they all should be Dynoed on the same dyno in the same day to try and remove some of the inaccuracy that can occur with temp change and so on. If you buy a sled based on HP numbers only, wouldn't that be foolish?? To me the seat of the pants out weighs any dyno numbers.... even if you are making big HP numbers you still need to get the power transfer to the snow through the clutches and that can have an adverse affect on the power you feel. I have built a few big bore atvs and the only reason we dyno them is to confirm that the end product made gains over the starting unit. One final note, if we truly believe a manufacturers published HP numbers then we are fools... its always some kind of sales gimmick, look at the silencer manufacturers... 10 hp to 20 hp gains... ya right lol, some of those silencers loose power.
If the so called dyno run on the 2011 was 153hp what was the run on the 2010 on the same dyno on the same day. Dynos margin of error can be as much as 10 to 15hp if no calibrated properly and some are just inaccurate more then others. If both a 2011 and 2010 Apex was within 1 hp on that same dyno and same day now I would be a little concerned... other then that I wouldn't think twice. You cant ride a dyno and dyno numbers are worthless unless you are looking for improvements over your base line pull on that day. If you want to compare HP numbers from sled to sled, they all should be Dynoed on the same dyno in the same day to try and remove some of the inaccuracy that can occur with temp change and so on. If you buy a sled based on HP numbers only, wouldn't that be foolish?? To me the seat of the pants out weighs any dyno numbers.... even if you are making big HP numbers you still need to get the power transfer to the snow through the clutches and that can have an adverse affect on the power you feel. I have built a few big bore atvs and the only reason we dyno them is to confirm that the end product made gains over the starting unit. One final note, if we truly believe a manufacturers published HP numbers then we are fools... its always some kind of sales gimmick, look at the silencer manufacturers... 10 hp to 20 hp gains... ya right lol, some of those silencers loose power.
dynotechjim
Veteran
After seeing Mike's post about the MIA shootout article last night I checked and it was deleted--I thought it may have been some internet hacker employed by Yamaha, but it was some glitch that my webguy rectified this AM, exactly as originally uploaded by me.
dynotechjim said:
Hacker employed by Yamaha? Now that's funny. You would think you would have left that out...it would have sounded a lot more professional coming from you, Jim.
dynotechjim
Veteran
I tried to find one of those yellow smiley face things with tongue-in-cheek to no avail. but most of you surely got it.
dirkdiggler
Suspended
Jim just admit you new dyno setup reads lower.
Oh I couldn't find the smiley face either
Oh I couldn't find the smiley face either
dynotechjim
Veteran
"when I replaced the original sf901 electronics with new 902 stuff, I had my own HTG1000 triple edge on the dyno. 225hp with early electronics, 225hp with the new electronics. I have the original absorber, and original torque measuring strain gauge. If I hang xxx lb of torque calibration weight and adjust properly, then the hp results are identical. It's just math, whether it's a cheap $100,000 dyno like mine or a million dollar dyno (?)--torque x rpm / 5252=hp."
it's just math, and proper calibration. if you hang exactly 110 lb/ft worth of measured weight on the absorber the dyno must read 110 lb/ft. Now the dyno operator can easily make 110 lb/ft read 150 lb/ft or 50 lb/ft if he is dishonest with some agenda to make an engine show more or less power than it actually has. I check calibration every day with the sled or bike owner observing, and I sometimes correct a slight drift in torque reading from day to day, but only a few tenths of a lb/ft.
sometimes dyno owners are perplexed if they get lower than expected numbers, even with proper calibration. The other goofs that are often made is incorrect baro reading (necessary for correction factor) and CO polluted dyno air. To get proper power readings, intake air must be free of CO from exhaust. If I forget to turn on the 7.5hp dyno air system that feeds the engine intake and removes exhaust from the room, I can easily lose 10hp on a 150hp engine. When I began dyno testing 25 years ago, I mistakenly used weather station baro readings for my dyno computer, and that robbed us of substantial power until and airplane pilot/ snomobiler smartened me up about corrected vs uncorrected barometer.
The fact that many sled EFI systems are calibrated lean at 70F then become richer as temps drop lead me to "assume" that the Apex would do the same, hence the lack of discussion of adding fuel (no need to act like Chicken Little) but it did not. Last summer I created a cold intake air system out of three walkin freezer compressors/ evaporators. So now when I test EFI sleds in warm weather, I can feed them with dry winter air, and tune them perfectly if needed.
but today, my baro readings are perfect, and double checked often with a kestrel racing weather station. my calibration weights have been checked on certified scales. And I have perfectly clean dyno room air, and zero agenda, so there's nothing left.
Generally, dyno operators who whine that my dyno reads "X hp high" need to check their own weights, barometer readings, and put a CO meter near the sled's air intakes.
it's just math, and proper calibration. if you hang exactly 110 lb/ft worth of measured weight on the absorber the dyno must read 110 lb/ft. Now the dyno operator can easily make 110 lb/ft read 150 lb/ft or 50 lb/ft if he is dishonest with some agenda to make an engine show more or less power than it actually has. I check calibration every day with the sled or bike owner observing, and I sometimes correct a slight drift in torque reading from day to day, but only a few tenths of a lb/ft.
sometimes dyno owners are perplexed if they get lower than expected numbers, even with proper calibration. The other goofs that are often made is incorrect baro reading (necessary for correction factor) and CO polluted dyno air. To get proper power readings, intake air must be free of CO from exhaust. If I forget to turn on the 7.5hp dyno air system that feeds the engine intake and removes exhaust from the room, I can easily lose 10hp on a 150hp engine. When I began dyno testing 25 years ago, I mistakenly used weather station baro readings for my dyno computer, and that robbed us of substantial power until and airplane pilot/ snomobiler smartened me up about corrected vs uncorrected barometer.
The fact that many sled EFI systems are calibrated lean at 70F then become richer as temps drop lead me to "assume" that the Apex would do the same, hence the lack of discussion of adding fuel (no need to act like Chicken Little) but it did not. Last summer I created a cold intake air system out of three walkin freezer compressors/ evaporators. So now when I test EFI sleds in warm weather, I can feed them with dry winter air, and tune them perfectly if needed.
but today, my baro readings are perfect, and double checked often with a kestrel racing weather station. my calibration weights have been checked on certified scales. And I have perfectly clean dyno room air, and zero agenda, so there's nothing left.
Generally, dyno operators who whine that my dyno reads "X hp high" need to check their own weights, barometer readings, and put a CO meter near the sled's air intakes.
