LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
I am skeptical about this kit being able to add anything to performance.
Reason I say this is that when you're pinned, you're NOT IN the midrange! Better to focus on clutching.
If you're putting the filters on a sled that is otherwise STOCK, it MAY, since stock jumps to 9000 to 9300 (midrange), then pulls up - and this is in a region of gains for the kit. If you're clutched well, you hit 9800 to 10200 - no gains.
Reason I say this is that when you're pinned, you're NOT IN the midrange! Better to focus on clutching.
If you're putting the filters on a sled that is otherwise STOCK, it MAY, since stock jumps to 9000 to 9300 (midrange), then pulls up - and this is in a region of gains for the kit. If you're clutched well, you hit 9800 to 10200 - no gains.
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
You're not going to make me retype everything that I typed on the other post here are you?
What is this...an anti-performance regression you are having or something?
Tell me how hundreds of people could ALL be wrong.
Sheeesh! I am looking for that icon of SUPERTUNER shaking his head again.
Unbelievable.
What is this...an anti-performance regression you are having or something?
Tell me how hundreds of people could ALL be wrong.
Sheeesh! I am looking for that icon of SUPERTUNER shaking his head again.
Unbelievable.
LazyBastard
TY 4 Stroke God
Thats *not* what you've shown. You've shown, as you would put it, torque/hp *after* torque increase. It doesn't matter if you get xx ft-lbs of torque at 8000 rpm, since its not a speed where you'll be sitting at in a race. I want to see a graph that looks like whats attached, with a blue curve for stock, and a red curve for ECP kit. I want to see what it does *AFTER* it smacks 10200 rpm, which it will do *instantly*.
I have already PROVEN that the point of maximum horsepower yields the maximum driveshaft (track) torque, so I want to see if your kit will actually increase the *driveshaft* torque sooner at the same RPM, which is what you've just claimed.
If you don't want to give a graph like this one, then at *least* give us DRIVESHAFT dyno for the whole run up at constant 10200 rpm engine speed.
I have already PROVEN that the point of maximum horsepower yields the maximum driveshaft (track) torque, so I want to see if your kit will actually increase the *driveshaft* torque sooner at the same RPM, which is what you've just claimed.
If you don't want to give a graph like this one, then at *least* give us DRIVESHAFT dyno for the whole run up at constant 10200 rpm engine speed.
Buckeye
Lifetime Member
- Joined
- Apr 13, 2003
- Messages
- 1,430
- Location
- Lakes Region, NH
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2018 Sidewinder LE XTX 137" 50th Aniversary
Freddie, the point is you are doin your best to help and provide a product that improves the performance of our snowmobile. In addition to that, you are taking the time to follow up and address everyone's concerns. This is unheard of in this industry. I REPEAT UNHEARD OF IN THIS INDUSTRY. Foe the last 16 years I have spent thousands of dollars on aftermarket go fast parts. Most of which did not work or were not reliable. Only to be told by the seller that I must have installed it improperly or Wiseco had changed the specs on them or some other bullshit answer. I do not have your kit, only because I have a turbo. I appreciate your commitment and effort. I only hope you do not become discouraged by some of the posts concerning these filters and that you continue to investigate and contribute to the performance of the 4 stroke snowmobile. Hang tough.
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
LB...I owe you an apology. I realize now why you are doubting this information. You have no idea of my dynamometers capabilities that I have here at ECP. Unless you have witnessed this type of dynamometer in action, I could kind of understand why you would want to question the accuracy of what is stated. Forgive me. And also, please allow me to explain a bit to you about inertia dynamometer testing.
I have a dynamometer that offers a tremendous amount of data to the user. Much more than what could be had by any steady state brake style dyno. In our shop, we learn the true "personality" of an engine because a run on our dyno is more like the real world in that we start at idle and open the throttle at whatever rate we want to. In the case of an acceleration run, a dynorun on our dynamometer is very much like an acceleration run on a dragstrip. We allow the engine to idle, bring the RPM's up slowly to a desired engagement RPM for sake of the clutching and open the throttle to WOT. From an inertia state, we are testing by slinging weight. In our case a 1200 pound drum is used to act as an inertial load. A dynorun on our dyno sounds exactly like a run down a dragstrip if that is the type of testing you want to do. For an acceleration run, it is exactly the environment desired. We DO NOT test engines through the clutches as this masks the true "personality" of the engine. One must first find what the engine acts like in order to provide enough data to attempt to clutch it. LB speaks of "driveshaft torque" which is a good point but if you happen to be a poor clutch tuner, a very high HP and great engine will look like a POS when all the while it is the user. (Which very often is the case I am afraid) In the case of a snowmobile, the gearcase side of the Jackshaft or lower Driveshaft should be considered the "driveshaft" in LB terms. I could however dynotest at the secondary clutch if I had too but the hardware and software system on my dyno is so "data supplying" comprehensive that it is usually unecessary for most tuners once they see the incredible amount of data generated by our system. I could go on and on about our dyno's features but for the sake of this topic. I will not get into it as it becomes very difficult to explain versus witnessing a session. I hope some of this better makes you understand the league that a dynamometer like this is in. Naturally, you only get as much from any piece of equipment like this as one could interpret. If you are capable if interpreting the data properly, you will get a great deal to benefit from by learning on this dynamometer. If not, you become an "internet engineer". I suspect that if you have any dynamometer experience at all, it is probably from a water brake or eddycurrent brake or AC style dynamometer that utilizes probably a strain guage to measure the work performed. I am not ridiculing these style of dyno's but they are limited to the amount of data that they are capable of generating. Our dyno could tell you how much power you have at idle, and every 1 RPM along the way to peak power. I could also tell you how long it takes to make said power. This data could be printed in either numerical or graphical fashion. I also have a feature on my dyno which is a "Race Program" where I could pit 2 sleds against each other and race them. Either 2 different sleds or even the same sled in 2 different states of tune. Now while this may sound somewhat "video game like" I would like to point out that I could make the vehicle weigh whatever I want and have in the past proven that this program is incredibly accurate. If you witnessed the R&D that I did on our dyno as well as field testing, you would not be questioning me here today. But you haven't so please accpet my devotion of time to try and make you better understand just how detailed I have been.
Now I do not have the luxury of being able to put pictures on the internet so I will describe as much as I can in the best detail that I can. This will have to do. The only thing I ask is that you believe me as anything else will insult me because basically you would be calling me a liar and I am afraid that I will no longer partake in this charade if it comes to that.
Let's use the same sled before and after the air kit for comparison's sake on the same day with no other changes other than the addition of my air kit. Also, I would like to set some guidelines...let's use a 130 HP number for the attained goal in both situations. (stock and with air kit)
The stock sled:
We will begin at 3200 RPM's. The engine broke 130 HP in 6.491843 seconds while slinging the 1200 pound mass.
The same sled with ECP equipped Air Kit:
We will begin at 3200 RPM's. The engine broke 130 HP in 4.780741 seconds while slinging the same mass of weight.
This equates to a elapsed time savings to reach 130 HP of 1.711102 seconds in favor of the air kit! There is no one that would be stupid enough to argue this. (I hope)
Now let's talk about peak power for the stock setup.
The stock setup made peak power at 10,200 RPM's and took 6.912500 seconds to make it. To make the same peak power as the stock setup, the air kit made it in only 5.113278 seconds. It also made it 1350 RPM's sooner!
Now let's talk about peak power attainment.
The stock setup as mentioned before made peak HP at 10,200 RPM's. It took 6.912500 seconds to get there.
The air kit tuneup made 4 more HP at peak but made it in 5.572470
So as you can see, the air kit equipped engine absolutely, positively crushes the stock airbox in terms of time to accelerate. This equates to a HP gain at 6000 RPM's of 16-21 HP and 12-14 HP gain at 9200 RPM's. With the smaller gain however at peak, it makes perfect sense why a stock airbox will pull the same MPH as an air kit equipped sled. It is just that the air kit equipped sled will do it in a lot shorter distance than the airbox equipped sled.
I think it would be cheaper for me to fly you out here to witness it yourself than to write these friggen thesis' everythime someone wants to question my integity. I sure hope this suffices as I have no more left in me for a challenge.
Thanks for the boost in morale Buckeye. This is just the way that I conduct business.
Freddie
I have a dynamometer that offers a tremendous amount of data to the user. Much more than what could be had by any steady state brake style dyno. In our shop, we learn the true "personality" of an engine because a run on our dyno is more like the real world in that we start at idle and open the throttle at whatever rate we want to. In the case of an acceleration run, a dynorun on our dynamometer is very much like an acceleration run on a dragstrip. We allow the engine to idle, bring the RPM's up slowly to a desired engagement RPM for sake of the clutching and open the throttle to WOT. From an inertia state, we are testing by slinging weight. In our case a 1200 pound drum is used to act as an inertial load. A dynorun on our dyno sounds exactly like a run down a dragstrip if that is the type of testing you want to do. For an acceleration run, it is exactly the environment desired. We DO NOT test engines through the clutches as this masks the true "personality" of the engine. One must first find what the engine acts like in order to provide enough data to attempt to clutch it. LB speaks of "driveshaft torque" which is a good point but if you happen to be a poor clutch tuner, a very high HP and great engine will look like a POS when all the while it is the user. (Which very often is the case I am afraid) In the case of a snowmobile, the gearcase side of the Jackshaft or lower Driveshaft should be considered the "driveshaft" in LB terms. I could however dynotest at the secondary clutch if I had too but the hardware and software system on my dyno is so "data supplying" comprehensive that it is usually unecessary for most tuners once they see the incredible amount of data generated by our system. I could go on and on about our dyno's features but for the sake of this topic. I will not get into it as it becomes very difficult to explain versus witnessing a session. I hope some of this better makes you understand the league that a dynamometer like this is in. Naturally, you only get as much from any piece of equipment like this as one could interpret. If you are capable if interpreting the data properly, you will get a great deal to benefit from by learning on this dynamometer. If not, you become an "internet engineer". I suspect that if you have any dynamometer experience at all, it is probably from a water brake or eddycurrent brake or AC style dynamometer that utilizes probably a strain guage to measure the work performed. I am not ridiculing these style of dyno's but they are limited to the amount of data that they are capable of generating. Our dyno could tell you how much power you have at idle, and every 1 RPM along the way to peak power. I could also tell you how long it takes to make said power. This data could be printed in either numerical or graphical fashion. I also have a feature on my dyno which is a "Race Program" where I could pit 2 sleds against each other and race them. Either 2 different sleds or even the same sled in 2 different states of tune. Now while this may sound somewhat "video game like" I would like to point out that I could make the vehicle weigh whatever I want and have in the past proven that this program is incredibly accurate. If you witnessed the R&D that I did on our dyno as well as field testing, you would not be questioning me here today. But you haven't so please accpet my devotion of time to try and make you better understand just how detailed I have been.
Now I do not have the luxury of being able to put pictures on the internet so I will describe as much as I can in the best detail that I can. This will have to do. The only thing I ask is that you believe me as anything else will insult me because basically you would be calling me a liar and I am afraid that I will no longer partake in this charade if it comes to that.
Let's use the same sled before and after the air kit for comparison's sake on the same day with no other changes other than the addition of my air kit. Also, I would like to set some guidelines...let's use a 130 HP number for the attained goal in both situations. (stock and with air kit)
The stock sled:
We will begin at 3200 RPM's. The engine broke 130 HP in 6.491843 seconds while slinging the 1200 pound mass.
The same sled with ECP equipped Air Kit:
We will begin at 3200 RPM's. The engine broke 130 HP in 4.780741 seconds while slinging the same mass of weight.
This equates to a elapsed time savings to reach 130 HP of 1.711102 seconds in favor of the air kit! There is no one that would be stupid enough to argue this. (I hope)
Now let's talk about peak power for the stock setup.
The stock setup made peak power at 10,200 RPM's and took 6.912500 seconds to make it. To make the same peak power as the stock setup, the air kit made it in only 5.113278 seconds. It also made it 1350 RPM's sooner!
Now let's talk about peak power attainment.
The stock setup as mentioned before made peak HP at 10,200 RPM's. It took 6.912500 seconds to get there.
The air kit tuneup made 4 more HP at peak but made it in 5.572470
So as you can see, the air kit equipped engine absolutely, positively crushes the stock airbox in terms of time to accelerate. This equates to a HP gain at 6000 RPM's of 16-21 HP and 12-14 HP gain at 9200 RPM's. With the smaller gain however at peak, it makes perfect sense why a stock airbox will pull the same MPH as an air kit equipped sled. It is just that the air kit equipped sled will do it in a lot shorter distance than the airbox equipped sled.
I think it would be cheaper for me to fly you out here to witness it yourself than to write these friggen thesis' everythime someone wants to question my integity. I sure hope this suffices as I have no more left in me for a challenge.
Thanks for the boost in morale Buckeye. This is just the way that I conduct business.
Freddie
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2003
- Messages
- 5,335
- Location
- Menno, SD
- Website
- www.ulmerracing.com
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2014 Yamaha SR Viper LTX, 2014 Yamaha SR Viper RTX SE, 2015 Yamaha SR Viper MTX SE 162 (turbo), 2015 Yamaha SR Viper MTX SE 153
- LOCATION
- Menno, SD
- WEBSITE
- www.ulmerracing.com
Freddie, my dad has ordered several sets of these filters from you. We have our own track dyno & if time permits I will take a day to sit down on the dyno and do acceleration tests with stock air box & with your filters. Its snowing right now though, which makes it tough to want to be inside when you can go out and ride 
4stroker
Extreme
Super... I also want to say thanks for all that you have done and are trying to do for everyone. I echo buckeye's sentiments about not getting discouraged if you are not able to "convert" everyone. I think one problem might be that a lot of us have been discouraged in the past by "false" claims about potential performance gains by many differant products. It is commendable that you constantly take the time to answer "inquiry's" as to how your product performs. I have never seen someone so committed to thier product and to customer satisfaction. Your product may not live up to the expectations that some may have and you may never "sell" everyone on the kit's advantages but those people will be in the minority. Nobody is really wrong here just some harder to convince. For less than $200 this is still the best bang for the buck and the easiest to apply (unlike clutching), you can spend (and a lot of people do) a lot more than that on V-force reeds and realize very minimal noticable gains. Unfortunetly I have yet to install mine since time and other constraints have not been in my favor yet, I'm hoping for this weekend. I have nowhere near the expertise that a lot of people on this site have so it's probably easier for me to assimilate the data you have showed without letting too much "knowledge" cloud my thinking or over thinking as the case may be. Thanks again and I look forward to any future proucts or suggestions you offer.
When you get a chance to do the track dyno runs it will be interesting to see if there is a drop in top speed like I have seen with the same clutching. My sled is faster to 100 but does not seem to have same top end.I dont know much about clutch setup so it is possible with a change the top end would be the same.
SUPERTUNER
TY 4 Stroke Master
Srxspec said:Freddie, my dad has ordered several sets of these filters from you. We have our own track dyno & if time permits I will take a day to sit down on the dyno and do acceleration tests with stock air box & with your filters. Its snowing right now though, which makes it tough to want to be inside when you can go out and ride
I do believe that track dyno's have their place but it is possible that you could make more HP through the engine and then "drive through the clutch" like I have explained elsewhere on this forum and show less power to the rear idlers. Then there is the chance of making more power on the track dyno and once you put traction to the track, you then drive through the clutch. Once again, track dyno's have their place but you really have to be technically astute to interpret what is really happening at times. There are simply too many variables between the PTO and the rear idlers. When it makes less HP...what do you blame?
Freddie
snowdawg
Extreme
Put the kit on today. Freddie my hats off to ya. I LOVE IT!! thanks snowdawg 
Bob Miller
TY 4 Stroke Master
- Joined
- Apr 19, 2003
- Messages
- 1,322
- Location
- New Milford CT
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- Present Sled: 2011 Yamaha Apex 128
Freddie, Your kit sounds very interesting, but I'm dicouraged by several posts of people losing top speed using your kit! Why is this happening? :roll:
Mighty
TY 4 Stroke God
- Joined
- Apr 17, 2003
- Messages
- 4,794
- Age
- 61
- Location
- Grand Ledge Michigan USA!
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 22 Mach Z
23 Sidewinder SRX
I said this before but will say it one more time; I had the kit installed on my Warrior. Very, very impressed with the seat of the pants feel and cool sound. It would get the sled to 100 now and stay there. I didn't know if it was the fact that it was a Warrior with 136 inch skid or the conditions. I was gonna sell the sled so I sold the kit. Before I took it off I decided to warm the sled up (much more pleasant to work on a warm engine) and took it out behind my house on a wheat field. The snow has an icy crusty layer that allows great hookup and I was able to achieve about maybe 90. After I put the sled back to stock I took it back out to make sure everything was fine. I found out it wasn't, I didn't get the carbs back in the boots all the way and couldn't get it to rev over 8K. Once back on right, I hit the wheat field again. In the same distance I was not only able to reach 100 but I flew right past it in the same distance before having to shut down because of lack of space. There is no doubt in my mind that these filters give you seat of the pants feel but there is a top end loss issue. One last example; 2 weeks ago I was on Houghton Lake (for those that don't know, it's the largest in-land lake in Michigan with miles of straights for top end testing) and the conditions were perfect. In the teens for temps with hardpack on the side of the lake I was on. Laying on my belly I couldn't get the dream "o" meter past 106. In the same exact conditions last year my RX-1, I recorded over 135 both times I tried on 2 different days with different conditions as well as different temps.
Something is wrong here boys
Something is wrong here boys
