morrisond
Expert
Although I would like an 450 Twin 900 I can't see Yamaha doing that. It would be a completely Different motor than anything in the Snowmobile line.
What I can see happening is that Yammie standardizing on the Phazer Cylinder design and Bore/Stroke(which is based on current r1 Superbike engine). They already have the Phazer Motor with 2 Cylinders and 80hp, they are rumoured to be updating the Apex with a new engine which I bet is based on the Current Superbike Engine, and would have something north of 160hp(two Phazer Engines stuck together), it would be easy to make a three cylinder version. You then have basically a modular 2,3, 4 cylinder engine, that use the same Cylinder, Head, Piston, Rod, and Valve designs, making it very efficient to build.
Looking at the Phazer chasis I don't think the Vector Engine will fit. But it sure looks like there is room for an extra 250cc Cylinder.
I really hope for the 750 12,000rpm engine, a lot more Fun, and would sound incredible.
What I can see happening is that Yammie standardizing on the Phazer Cylinder design and Bore/Stroke(which is based on current r1 Superbike engine). They already have the Phazer Motor with 2 Cylinders and 80hp, they are rumoured to be updating the Apex with a new engine which I bet is based on the Current Superbike Engine, and would have something north of 160hp(two Phazer Engines stuck together), it would be easy to make a three cylinder version. You then have basically a modular 2,3, 4 cylinder engine, that use the same Cylinder, Head, Piston, Rod, and Valve designs, making it very efficient to build.
Looking at the Phazer chasis I don't think the Vector Engine will fit. But it sure looks like there is room for an extra 250cc Cylinder.
I really hope for the 750 12,000rpm engine, a lot more Fun, and would sound incredible.
V-maximum
Extreme
I think in order to compete they have to bore the YZ450 cylinders to 500cc and mate them together just like they did with the 250. If they did it with the phazer you can be sure that kind of sucess cant go forseen.I cant see why everybody thinks it will be a triple. Its too heavy. They should put the triple engine in the apex and factory supercharge it up to lets say a 175 hp, just enough to eat the mach and lighten the load. And as for fuel injection if thats the best they can do mabie they should go back to carbs. Im sure many riders want great fuel economy, and the last thing I want is a two stroke rider saying that I run outta gas before he does.
Mountaintech
TY 4 Stroke God
morrisond, an FX chassis sled with Vector motor is already reality.
morrisond
Expert
I'm sure it is, but I just go back to all the rumors last year before the Phazer was announced and everyone was sure it was an 750 Triple. I'm sure that the 750 exists as well. We'll see what Yammie puts in the Phazer 120. I wouldn't put it past Yammie to use a different engine in the Snocross sled vs the consumer sled.
Personally I hope it's the 750. At 12,000 RPM it can make just as much power as the Vector Motor at 8,500 and with the gear reduction maybe even a little more torque, would sound better, and Rev a lot faster(smaller pistons). Plus it should be lighter.
Personally I hope it's the 750. At 12,000 RPM it can make just as much power as the Vector Motor at 8,500 and with the gear reduction maybe even a little more torque, would sound better, and Rev a lot faster(smaller pistons). Plus it should be lighter.
Laban
Extreme
V-maximum said:
Too heavy compared to what ?
There's a thread in a Swedish snowmobile forum that lists the weight for the RS, Apex and Phazer engine, all including the electric start. If i remember it correctly:
RS: ~ 53 kg = 116,6 lbs
Apex: ~ 54 kg = 118.8 lbs
Phazer ~ 34 kg = 75,7 lbs
I'm guessing that a Phazer triple would end up somewhere between the Apex and Phazer engine which means >20lbs lighter then the RS engine.
That's not that bad imo. It would probably be heavier then comparable 2T engines but not by that many lbs if the electric start is included in the 2T engine also.
morrisond
Expert
Wow, an almost 40lbs difference between the Vector and Phazer motors. That reinforces my opinion that there is no way Yammie builds a consumer version of the Phazer with the Vector Motor. It would be in the 525 lb. range, too Heavy. They should be able to keep a triple 750 at or about 500, which in Marketing wars would still be considered relatively light and acceptable.
morrisond
Expert
I get to only an 15 lb increase, as a three Cylinder wouldn't need the counterbalancer, so all your adding is a throttle body, longer crank and case and one more Cylinder and Head/piston, maybe a bigger/denser radiator.
They can always save more weight by using titanium exhaust, ti rods, etc... Given that an 120 will selll for a lot more than the 80 this will give them some budget to put some lightweight trick parts on it.
If it is Vector Motor and it does add 40lbs., I wouldn't want it as I think it would upset the wonderful balance of the sled. If your going to add that much weight you might as well stuff an HO version of the Apex motor in with 165hp+, which according to the chart doesn't weigh any more.
They can always save more weight by using titanium exhaust, ti rods, etc... Given that an 120 will selll for a lot more than the 80 this will give them some budget to put some lightweight trick parts on it.
If it is Vector Motor and it does add 40lbs., I wouldn't want it as I think it would upset the wonderful balance of the sled. If your going to add that much weight you might as well stuff an HO version of the Apex motor in with 165hp+, which according to the chart doesn't weigh any more.
number1kyster
TY 4 Stroke God
It is going to be the vector motor in phazer chasis. WSA rules says that no sled with gear reduction can be raced. This means that only the vector motor can be used for snocross. I dont think it will be the exact phazer chasis but it will utilize the phazer front suspension and maybe the rear skid. The vector motor is powerful, reliable and smooth and with FI they will crank 130hp out of it. The Vector has been around for 3 years which means it is time for replacement. I honestly belive that it is going to get FI and have a new chasis that will be a cross between an apex and a phazer.
morrisond
Expert
WSA rules actually don't say that. They say that non-gear reduced 4 strokes up to 1050cc are allowed. However it also talks about other engine designs being allowed(i.e. Gear Reduced 4strokes) although maybe at a lower displacement limit, which hasn't been defined yet.
There is no reason though that Yammie doesn't build an 973cc EFI 130 for the cruisers and an 750 CC 120 Triple Phazer based motor for the Phazer type sleds.
If Yammie is allowed up to 1050 in Snocross, I would guess that Yammie would want to take advantage of that extra displacement. But as it has to be Production based I can't see them Bumping out the vector motor to 1050 when the Apex is only 1000.
The Maximumsled article referred to the fact that they are starting with an Vector Motor in there Mod Sled tester, that doesn't mean that this is what they will campaign long term though.
There is no reason though that Yammie doesn't build an 973cc EFI 130 for the cruisers and an 750 CC 120 Triple Phazer based motor for the Phazer type sleds.
If Yammie is allowed up to 1050 in Snocross, I would guess that Yammie would want to take advantage of that extra displacement. But as it has to be Production based I can't see them Bumping out the vector motor to 1050 when the Apex is only 1000.
The Maximumsled article referred to the fact that they are starting with an Vector Motor in there Mod Sled tester, that doesn't mean that this is what they will campaign long term though.
Laban
Extreme
morrisond said:
I'm guessing that the rules could be adapted pretty quickly if WSA found it necessary. Maybe something like 800cc triple with gear reduction in addition to the current rules.
morrisond
Expert
I would guess it would be a 750. This would allow them to use common parts with the R1 and Phazer engines. Not to worry though, in full bore MotoGp Tune Yammie is getting about 240-250 hp out of their 1,000 at 15-16,000rpm. Should be able to get 160-170 hp out of full mod Gear Reduced 750 Easily.
Who wouldn't want a 12,000 RPm Triple sled engine? Would sound very mean.
Who wouldn't want a 12,000 RPm Triple sled engine? Would sound very mean.
BV1
Expert
Im betting it will be an 8500 RPM redliner, 750 triple, with 100 HP peak instead of 80, or 120.
Otherwise, the Phazer doesn't fill the niche they designed it to do.
-Steve
Otherwise, the Phazer doesn't fill the niche they designed it to do.
-Steve
V-maximum
Extreme
Im beting on a 900 twin with a slightly renforced chassis heaver clutch and suspension. Just seems natural with the sucess of the phazer.
Laban
Extreme
BV1 said:
What niche are you talking about ?
I see no reason at all for them to make a 100 hp class engine, at least not a triple. Especially since they have to either limit a Phazer/R1 triple to 8500 rpm or make a downsized RS engine which would weigh a lot more then a Phazer based engine. All that to make a 100hp engine which is a pretty much none existing class a.t.m.
Could be a good idea to make a Phazer HO type of engine though, let's say 550-600cc and 90-100 hp. They do similar things on the waterjets so why not on the snowmobile side also.
morrisond
Expert
I would vote for the HO. Especially as it wouldn't add any weight. Give me an 100hp 600cc Phazer based twin. Charge $2,000 more for it Canadian, which would give Yammie the Budget(as the engine shouldn't really cost any more to build)to throw a bunch of light weight parts on it dropping say 20lbs(Air Shocks all around and ti-exhaust would probably do it, might be possible to find another 10lbs), and you would have an absolutely killer sled.
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