Fuel pump relay freeze up

[Phatboyc]

So now we have three members with the red relay and one with a Polaris relay.

Any of you guys had problems the rest of the winter?

Did the part number for the red relay changed?

Also we have four relays in a row. Three of them with the same part number as the others. Which one is the fuel pump? If its one of the three then why are the other ones don't fail?

 

[BOUNTYHUNTER]

Never had one issue with that relay after i covered it, also seems nobody around here even had "RED RELAYS" as i wanted to see one and keep it just for a spare just encase mine became a problem

 

[Phatboyc]

All three members that are testing red relays are from Ontario. None of them seem to have a part number for now.

Hopefully we`ll find out before next season. If not I`m leaning towards polaris relay #4011998. Should be similar size?

I believe the foam wraps works for you. Its just I have a hard time understanding it the physics. If you insulate something that doesn't provide its own heat overnight the temperature of the relay will dip at same temperature as everything else insulation or not. Also I am not to fond of the look as you would see it though the grill.

 

[Port-Parts]

The new red relay should be available next fall and to my knowledge be coming as stock equipment on the 2014 models. The new red relay is a solid state relay meaning there are no internal moving parts like the current electromechanical relays being used which have lead to the icing/freezing issues with the relays in sub zero temps. I believe the part number on the new red relays will be 8GN-81950-00-00 but the part number is not set up yet in Yamaha's system so it is not orderable yet and there is no price on it yet. The new relay has the holder part built into it and for people wondering which relay of the ones on their sled is the actual fuel pump relay the easiest way to identify it on the sled is to look at the wiring going to the relay. The fuel pump relay normally has 3 red wires and one blue wire going to it.

 

[Phatboyc]

That's great news! Stock a bunch cause you'll have lots of order if these works.

On the Apex it seems we have four relays. Can this future red one will replace all four? From the micro fiche I have three with same number.

 

[Port-Parts]

Technically it could replace the three that share the same part number (4 terminal style relay) - the other one has 5 terminals so it wouldn't work for that one. Other than the fuel pump relay icing on really cold days when battery voltage is usually less than 12.5 volts on cold start - it would seem the other relays would have trouble too but the power is not applied to them until after start up and at that point the stator is helping the battery by boosting voltage up to around 13-14 volts and then they seem to work fine and can overcome the icing issue so in general we have seen very little issues with the other relays. I don't think I'd worry about the other relays unless you are having an issue with one of them.

 

[Phatboyc]

I though one was a starter relay. My mistake.

Thanks for all the info!

 

[BOUNTYHUNTER]

I believe the foam wraps works for you. Its just I have a hard time understanding it the physics. If you insulate something that doesn't provide its own heat overnight the temperature of the relay will dip at same temperature as everything else insulation or not. Also I am not to fond of the look as you would see it though the grill.

Well maybe it works and maybe it’s just a coincidence, there is no way of really knowing for sure but it hasn’t done it since for me. The physics are quite simple actually the outside temp is always lower than the inside of a garage, shed or trailer by quite a bit as there is no wind or frost to penetrate it. The external temp of the relay is higher wrapped than unwrapped and I’ve not since had frost directly on it since it’s wrapped, now the true secret is just by how much as I could not get a reading with my thermal gun because it was too wrapped up. Yes having a actual heat source would have been so much better but I just wasn’t sure on how I was going to do it. As far as seeing it; You Cant it’s above the opening and that grill is solid on a apex, maybe different on a Nytro. All in all it was just a thought and for the few cents it cost was worth trying, and I thought it might get some of the guys that love to tinker on their sleds thinking about a better way.

Thanks Kevin for all the excellent info on that Red Relay.

 

[Sled Dog]

Larry I am having a little trouble with your explanation. It is true a garage and shed is warmer but there is a reason for it; there is a heat source that being the earth and or the garage floor that sits upon the earth. That heat source and insulation to hold it in without any wind to strip it away is the real reason a supposedly unheated garage is warmer than outside. Now having the insulated relay outside in the elements and expect it to hold heat will not work. It will hold its heat longer thats a given but it will eventually lose it heat and get to the same or close to following the outside temp. I think its working for you because you are keeping the problem out in the first place and thats moisture. This is of course IMHO.

 

[BOUNTYHUNTER]

Maybe Rod

.....at what temp does the moisture inside the relay melt on its own?
.....at what internal temp does the moisture develope?
.....how much moisture is blocked by being wrapped?
.....is it heat or vibration that helps assisting it in working?
.....does creating a barrier between the relay and atmosphere actually do anything?
.....for $9 and change it has certainly caused it's fair share of issues for many

Like i said when i first started this back on my build, I was looking for a way to help eliminate this problem, whether or not my explanation is right, wrong or out to lunch it was something I was working at. And as always I share anything that might help or inspire others to make it even better for all or just themselves.

 

[Sled Dog]

Maybe Rod

.....at what temp does the moisture inside the relay melt on its own?
.....at what internal temp does the moisture develope?
.....how much moisture is blocked by being wrapped?
.....is it heat or vibration that helps assisting it in working?
.....does creating a barrier between the relay and atmosphere actually do anything?
.....for $9 and change it has certainly caused it's fair share of issues for many

Like i said when i first started this back on my build, I was looking for a way to help eliminate this problem, whether or not my explanation is right, wrong or out to lunch it was something I was working at. And as always I share anything that might help or inspire others to make it even better for all or just themselves.

The main thing to remember is its been working so far and that is real world testing which is the best kind!
I was just throwing some of my opinions and ideas out there. As you have pointed out though there is a lot of variables to consider.
I think it is a moisture problem and that may be why Yamaha went to a non mechanical type to eliminate the freezing of the mechanical parts and or maybe the moisture in the first place. I have posted before that if they purged and sealed the relay with nitrogen it would eliminate the moisture and thus the mechanical one would or should still work. I like the idea that they eliminated the moving parts instead. Be interesting to see if your mod works the whole season next year if it does I would say its fixed.

 

[sgilbert]

Larry I am having a little trouble with your explanation. It is true a garage and shed is warmer but there is a reason for it; there is a heat source that being the earth and or the garage floor that sits upon the earth. That heat source and insulation to hold it in without any wind to strip it away is the real reason a supposedly unheated garage is warmer than outside. Now having the insulated relay outside in the elements and expect it to hold heat will not work. It will hold its heat longer thats a given but it will eventually lose it heat and get to the same or close to following the outside temp. I think its working for you because you are keeping the problem out in the first place and thats moisture. This is of course IMHO.

I would say that the slower something cools, the less mousture it draws, especially without wind passing by it, weather you cover it or park it in. my nytro has never done it, but my apex has a few times when left out at camp. I just keep trying till it goes, and always does. I will wrap mine and try it, bet it helps alot. I would guess they dont make a solid state one that handles a starters current, but have no idea. but it would make sense for the low amp ones

 

[jagabom]

My 08 Apex did the same thing with the fuel injection. Fuel injection relay was stuck. Someone posted somewhere to get the relay from NAPA. Three times the price but hope it works. Don't think it is electronic, still mechanical. Can't afford to buy another one to take it apart. The new relay doesn't fit in the holder but the plug works. I wrapped mine up in several layers of cloth so it stays in the same position as the others. I to think wrapping makes a difference. Don't understand it though. As Phatboyc said, we now have one person with a NAPA relay as well as all the others.


Jim
08 APEX

 

[cannondale27]

Red Solid State relay is a great Idea! One thing to watch for though. If it is used for ECU power there is a good chance that the ECU will never shut off even with key off. As far as I know all Solid state relays draw power even when off. This power may be enough to keep the ECU awake and drain a battery. Once ECU is turned off with a normal relay this would cut the drain from any other relays. So unless checked since maybe I am wrong with the Yamaha ECU. Dont use a solid state in the ECU position.