air19
Pro
I am going to use this new topic to catalog my experiences grooming with a new '08 VK Pro here in northern Vermont.
As a brief background I have been grooming for nine years with a '99 Skandic SWT which served me well during that time. We have 25Km of cross country ski trails in rolling terrain ranging from 1000 ft to 1250 ft in elevation. There are a couple of good hills with about a 20 degree pitch.
I have been watching the 4 stroke development for some time now and finally decided this year that they have worked out the bugs and have all the necessary characteristics for every day grooming - good cooling capabilities, low range gearing, and good floatation/wide track. Based on my research the VK Pro and the Skandic SWT 800 are the best sleds out there for grooming.
Last week I purchased a VK Pro. I actually started a thread on the "dootalk" forum documenting my purchase decision and I got a lot of good answers to my questions from members of that forum. Here's the link to that thread - http://www.dootalk.com/forums/index.php ... pic=184820
Here's a couple of pictures of the VK Pro in the garage before I started grooming with it.
As a brief background I have been grooming for nine years with a '99 Skandic SWT which served me well during that time. We have 25Km of cross country ski trails in rolling terrain ranging from 1000 ft to 1250 ft in elevation. There are a couple of good hills with about a 20 degree pitch.
I have been watching the 4 stroke development for some time now and finally decided this year that they have worked out the bugs and have all the necessary characteristics for every day grooming - good cooling capabilities, low range gearing, and good floatation/wide track. Based on my research the VK Pro and the Skandic SWT 800 are the best sleds out there for grooming.
Last week I purchased a VK Pro. I actually started a thread on the "dootalk" forum documenting my purchase decision and I got a lot of good answers to my questions from members of that forum. Here's the link to that thread - http://www.dootalk.com/forums/index.php ... pic=184820
Here's a couple of pictures of the VK Pro in the garage before I started grooming with it.
Attachments
air19
Pro
First Grooming Run
I spent 4 hours out on the trails today with the VK Pro pulling my TiddTech G2 groomer. I covered 40 kilometers doing two passes on most of the trails. It was right at freezing today - temperature between 30 and 32 degrees F. I have a great base on the trails since I have already groomed 13 times this year. We had 2 inches of wet snow on top of this solid base.
Here are the first of many reactions I have - remember by baseline is many years of grooming with a '99 Skandic SWT.
1. Pulling Power - Big Improvement - The G2 is my heaviest grooming implement weighing around 300 lbs. today, without the 100 lb. tracksetter. It also has about 60 harrow teeth grooming knives that can create a lot of resistance. I was running with the knives down in the snow leveling the trails. The VK Pro went up every hill I tried today with a lot less effort than the SWT and a lot less momentum needed to get over the top. There were a couple of hills where I stopped half way up and tried to see if I could slowly walk up the rest and I did fine. The VK Pro has a lot of torque.
2. Steering Capability - Terrible at the moment - I haven't switched my Simmons Flexi-Skis over from the Skandic, or had any adjustments done to the suspension. The VK Pro is not set up for grooming with it's default suspension settings from the factor. The front end is very light right now. As soon as my dealer gets the right fittings from Simmons to switch the Flexi-Skis over I'll have them installed and work on the suspension with him at the same time. Right now I'm missing all my tight turns. Anyone know how easy it is to make suspension changes?
3. Cooling Capability - Better than the SWT. But, I still had it overheat on me once today. This was a good test today with 32 degree temperatures and pulling a 300 lb. drag with full resistance. Frankly knowing my SWT I would NOT have tried this test with it. But I wanted to learn how the VK Pro would perform so grooming we went. About three hours into the grooming run I got stuck (because of my steering, or lack of it). I had to do a lot of rocking back and forth and I tried this with the groomer attached so the VK Pro was really pushing through deep heavy snow at crawling speeds. I got out of there in about 5 minutes but as soon as I was back on the trail I noticed the warning indicator and the coolant light on. I turned the engine off for about 20 minutes, had lunch on the trail, and when I fired the engine back up we were back to normal. I went on for another hour of grooming and had no more overheating issues.
4. Transmission Operation - Same as the SWT - I was just getting an idea on how easy it was to shift between low and reverse. I did this a couple dozen times today when I missed my turns. Luckily the G2 groomer can be backed up without digging into the snow. I was hoping for some improvement here compared to the SWT, but there were a couple of times when the VK Pro would not get out of low gear and into reverse. I revved it then used the brake to calm the RPMs down and eventually it would shift into reverse. This could easily be a first time operator error, I'm not sure yet how much to pull the lever out before I turn it into reverse. This will take some playing with, any advise appreciated.
5. Operator comfort - 4 strokes are great compared to any 2 stroke during a 4 hour grooming run. I came in without any of my usual headaches from smelling the bad exhaust. I like the fact that on the VK Pro the exhaust exits behind the operator. On my Skandic it came out the right side up front, right in line with one of my usual riding positions.
6. Throttle operation - Worse than the SWT. This could be operator problems, but the VK Pro is very jerky on startup. As a groomer I'm driving around between 5 and 10 mph, and because my steering is so bad right now, I'm going around a couple of corners very slow to try and carve through them. There is so much low end torque in the VK Pro and I found the throttle so touchy that I was jerking around a lot more than I would like.
Those are my first reactions.
Here are a couple of pictures of the VK Pro and the TiddTech G2 before I went out.
I spent 4 hours out on the trails today with the VK Pro pulling my TiddTech G2 groomer. I covered 40 kilometers doing two passes on most of the trails. It was right at freezing today - temperature between 30 and 32 degrees F. I have a great base on the trails since I have already groomed 13 times this year. We had 2 inches of wet snow on top of this solid base.
Here are the first of many reactions I have - remember by baseline is many years of grooming with a '99 Skandic SWT.
1. Pulling Power - Big Improvement - The G2 is my heaviest grooming implement weighing around 300 lbs. today, without the 100 lb. tracksetter. It also has about 60 harrow teeth grooming knives that can create a lot of resistance. I was running with the knives down in the snow leveling the trails. The VK Pro went up every hill I tried today with a lot less effort than the SWT and a lot less momentum needed to get over the top. There were a couple of hills where I stopped half way up and tried to see if I could slowly walk up the rest and I did fine. The VK Pro has a lot of torque.
2. Steering Capability - Terrible at the moment - I haven't switched my Simmons Flexi-Skis over from the Skandic, or had any adjustments done to the suspension. The VK Pro is not set up for grooming with it's default suspension settings from the factor. The front end is very light right now. As soon as my dealer gets the right fittings from Simmons to switch the Flexi-Skis over I'll have them installed and work on the suspension with him at the same time. Right now I'm missing all my tight turns. Anyone know how easy it is to make suspension changes?
3. Cooling Capability - Better than the SWT. But, I still had it overheat on me once today. This was a good test today with 32 degree temperatures and pulling a 300 lb. drag with full resistance. Frankly knowing my SWT I would NOT have tried this test with it. But I wanted to learn how the VK Pro would perform so grooming we went. About three hours into the grooming run I got stuck (because of my steering, or lack of it). I had to do a lot of rocking back and forth and I tried this with the groomer attached so the VK Pro was really pushing through deep heavy snow at crawling speeds. I got out of there in about 5 minutes but as soon as I was back on the trail I noticed the warning indicator and the coolant light on. I turned the engine off for about 20 minutes, had lunch on the trail, and when I fired the engine back up we were back to normal. I went on for another hour of grooming and had no more overheating issues.
4. Transmission Operation - Same as the SWT - I was just getting an idea on how easy it was to shift between low and reverse. I did this a couple dozen times today when I missed my turns. Luckily the G2 groomer can be backed up without digging into the snow. I was hoping for some improvement here compared to the SWT, but there were a couple of times when the VK Pro would not get out of low gear and into reverse. I revved it then used the brake to calm the RPMs down and eventually it would shift into reverse. This could easily be a first time operator error, I'm not sure yet how much to pull the lever out before I turn it into reverse. This will take some playing with, any advise appreciated.
5. Operator comfort - 4 strokes are great compared to any 2 stroke during a 4 hour grooming run. I came in without any of my usual headaches from smelling the bad exhaust. I like the fact that on the VK Pro the exhaust exits behind the operator. On my Skandic it came out the right side up front, right in line with one of my usual riding positions.
6. Throttle operation - Worse than the SWT. This could be operator problems, but the VK Pro is very jerky on startup. As a groomer I'm driving around between 5 and 10 mph, and because my steering is so bad right now, I'm going around a couple of corners very slow to try and carve through them. There is so much low end torque in the VK Pro and I found the throttle so touchy that I was jerking around a lot more than I would like.
Those are my first reactions.
Here are a couple of pictures of the VK Pro and the TiddTech G2 before I went out.
Attachments
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Nice to see that you're already started. To increase presure on the front of the sled, shorten the limiter strap(s) on the front torque arm of the rear suspension.
Once you do that, you will have the heaviest nose in the biz creating your ski pressure (!), in one of the rare applications where that will actually be an asset.
I have heard about some overheating issues with VK under extreme loads. With the rad and fan setup, there should be no excuse for that. Once I get our VK Pro in a week or so, I will experiment with (a) the coolant mixture (my RX-1 was delivered with a near 100% mixture, not as efficient as 50/50) and (b) the temp that the fan cuts in at.
Once you do that, you will have the heaviest nose in the biz creating your ski pressure (!), in one of the rare applications where that will actually be an asset.
I have heard about some overheating issues with VK under extreme loads. With the rad and fan setup, there should be no excuse for that. Once I get our VK Pro in a week or so, I will experiment with (a) the coolant mixture (my RX-1 was delivered with a near 100% mixture, not as efficient as 50/50) and (b) the temp that the fan cuts in at.
YETI
Extreme
keep up the testing and posts with pick I like to here how it works out for you I pick up an 07 this year and like it so far great in snow broke trail through my sap line in 3' of fluffy snow never got stuck and alot of tight corners and even stoped to cut a couple of trees that where in the way. Good luck and happy grooming. Stan
air19
Pro
Yes good steering is very important for grooming.
Most of the time I'm running with my knives down creating a lot of resistance to any type of turning. And when I'm tracksetting I want to have a very consistent line and a consistent radius going around the curves. And any uphill turn is very tough with the groomer trying to push the sled straight through the turn.
I just weighed the tongue weight of my G2 groomer and it comes in at 40 lbs with the battery power pack up front. 40 lbs pushing down at the very back behind the track is another reason I need more front end weight. During a day of grooming as more snow accumulates on the front of the groomer, this tongue weight increases. When I put on the 100 lb tracksetter which hangs way out on the end of the groomer, the tongue weight gets lighter, but steering gets worse because now I have this 100 lb swing weight about 10 feet behind the hitch point.
I'm looking forward to changing the suspension settings to see what a difference it can make. Ideally I would like to be able to change this based on the conditions and what I'm trying to do that day. During hard pack conditions when I'll be running the G2 with knives in I want a lot of weight up front. After big snow dumps when I will be breaking trail without any groomer in tow I obviously would like less on the front end.
Once I understand how to make the suspension changes, will this be a 5 minute or 30 minute operation?
*** By the way can some forum administrator explain to me why my four pictures were taken off this thread? None of the pictures were bigger than 170 KB. ***
Most of the time I'm running with my knives down creating a lot of resistance to any type of turning. And when I'm tracksetting I want to have a very consistent line and a consistent radius going around the curves. And any uphill turn is very tough with the groomer trying to push the sled straight through the turn.
I just weighed the tongue weight of my G2 groomer and it comes in at 40 lbs with the battery power pack up front. 40 lbs pushing down at the very back behind the track is another reason I need more front end weight. During a day of grooming as more snow accumulates on the front of the groomer, this tongue weight increases. When I put on the 100 lb tracksetter which hangs way out on the end of the groomer, the tongue weight gets lighter, but steering gets worse because now I have this 100 lb swing weight about 10 feet behind the hitch point.
I'm looking forward to changing the suspension settings to see what a difference it can make. Ideally I would like to be able to change this based on the conditions and what I'm trying to do that day. During hard pack conditions when I'll be running the G2 with knives in I want a lot of weight up front. After big snow dumps when I will be breaking trail without any groomer in tow I obviously would like less on the front end.
Once I understand how to make the suspension changes, will this be a 5 minute or 30 minute operation?
*** By the way can some forum administrator explain to me why my four pictures were taken off this thread? None of the pictures were bigger than 170 KB. ***
ApexRtxGuy
Expert
very interesting like threads that show how these machines can do work as well as give us pleasure.
happy trails 'tyler'
happy trails 'tyler'
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
All four pics appear to be showing well for me...!?
air19
Pro
Glad to see the pictures are back. I looked at the thread earlier today to respond to some of the messages and there were no pictures.
Warm temperatures here in Vermont still, but next week the mercury should be falling below freezing and we'll be out grooming again. In some ways it's been a good start to winter with almost record snowfalls in Vermont. However the temperatures have been very moderate. That is actually not the best way to start a grooming season. All the wet spots in the trails are still there. The large snowfalls helped insulate them and stopped them from freezing up and with no frigid nights they stayed that way.
As usual when I go out grooming, I'm spending more time doing other things than grooming, like shoveling a layer of snow all into these wet spots in hope that they will start to freeze over at night.
Warm temperatures here in Vermont still, but next week the mercury should be falling below freezing and we'll be out grooming again. In some ways it's been a good start to winter with almost record snowfalls in Vermont. However the temperatures have been very moderate. That is actually not the best way to start a grooming season. All the wet spots in the trails are still there. The large snowfalls helped insulate them and stopped them from freezing up and with no frigid nights they stayed that way.
As usual when I go out grooming, I'm spending more time doing other things than grooming, like shoveling a layer of snow all into these wet spots in hope that they will start to freeze over at night.
Tom Lee
Extreme
When I am on this site and not logged in, I cant see the photos either. If I log in they show up. Maybe that is why you didn't see the pics. This may encourage more people to join, as that is how they can access the photos. But, I could be totallywrong. (Pun intended)lolair19 said:
Kråkan
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
How many miles on the sled?
These 4strokers ca get alittle hot during breakin..
The jerky lowspeed gets better with breakin and the fact that u learn how to use the trottle. It takes alittle while to learn to handle it right...
We have the -06 VK and it is GREAT eaven without the low gear it... Maybe not with those heavy groomers but with the one that I use. The torque help alot...
The steering is BAD on ours aswell. I learned to take the turns with alittle speed and let of the trottle.. But ajusting the limmiterstraps and the transferrods would be alot better...
I dont think that new skis will help alot but i guess you have better carbides on the Simmons.... For those that dont have a set laying around new carbides on the stockers would help alot... The standard carbides suck!
These 4strokers ca get alittle hot during breakin..
The jerky lowspeed gets better with breakin and the fact that u learn how to use the trottle. It takes alittle while to learn to handle it right...
We have the -06 VK and it is GREAT eaven without the low gear it... Maybe not with those heavy groomers but with the one that I use. The torque help alot...
The steering is BAD on ours aswell. I learned to take the turns with alittle speed and let of the trottle.. But ajusting the limmiterstraps and the transferrods would be alot better...
I dont think that new skis will help alot but i guess you have better carbides on the Simmons.... For those that dont have a set laying around new carbides on the stockers would help alot... The standard carbides suck!
air19
Pro
I have only 50 miles on the sled, so I've got a long way to go before it's broken in. I'll watch the overheating condition very closely and see if it gets better as the miles go on. Thanks. Of the different areas I've provided feedback on regarding the VK Pro, this is the one that I really need to see improve.
The other areas like steering, I have a good idea will improve. I have used Simmons FlexiSkis for years and I do swear by them. The big difference is they have a "U shaped" profile with two carbides. The outer carbides really make a difference in the turns.
Good to hear from someone in Sweden. I have been involved with Orienteering here in the States for 25 years and made it over to Sweden twice to run in the O-Ringen. Beautiful country.
The other areas like steering, I have a good idea will improve. I have used Simmons FlexiSkis for years and I do swear by them. The big difference is they have a "U shaped" profile with two carbides. The outer carbides really make a difference in the turns.
Good to hear from someone in Sweden. I have been involved with Orienteering here in the States for 25 years and made it over to Sweden twice to run in the O-Ringen. Beautiful country.
Kråkan
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
You should take the sled out on some trips to get it ridden the first 100-200miles or so.. The first 100 miles are important to NOT get it overheated and ride it under (I think it is 5500-6000rpm).. Eaven until first service you should be careful with overheating.....
I know one that has ridden his -06 VK app 15000km and he rides HARD in the mountains not on the trails... Broke his rear suspention shocks and rails when riding it in his job (controlling the wildlife in the swedish mountains).. But that is all he has been able to break so far.. It is a tough sled!!!
Im from the northern part of Sweden, Almost the arctic cirkle...
I know one that has ridden his -06 VK app 15000km and he rides HARD in the mountains not on the trails... Broke his rear suspention shocks and rails when riding it in his job (controlling the wildlife in the swedish mountains).. But that is all he has been able to break so far.. It is a tough sled!!!
Im from the northern part of Sweden, Almost the arctic cirkle...
air19
Pro
I've been out grooming two more days since my last post. About 25 miles each day. I've been pulling the TiddTech G2, riding about 8 to 10 mph and always keeping the RPMs around 4000 in low gear. No more overheating problems so far.
This seems to be a good compination for the VK Pro as well as my grooming needs. The VK Pro just purrs along at 4000 rpm and with my current snow conditions and trail base, I haven't had to rev it any higher to get up my hills. This makes for much easier riding.
Going about 8-10 mph is also good for grooming with the G2. The comb leaves a nice corduroy pattern at this speed, and the tracksetter also leaves a strong track pattern.
Tonight we are expected another 12 inches of snow, so the grooming just keeps going.
This seems to be a good compination for the VK Pro as well as my grooming needs. The VK Pro just purrs along at 4000 rpm and with my current snow conditions and trail base, I haven't had to rev it any higher to get up my hills. This makes for much easier riding.
Going about 8-10 mph is also good for grooming with the G2. The comb leaves a nice corduroy pattern at this speed, and the tracksetter also leaves a strong track pattern.
Tonight we are expected another 12 inches of snow, so the grooming just keeps going.
wayne
Extreme
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2005
- Messages
- 67
have you taken the vent sheild out from in front of the rad. I found in the spring in warmer conditions that this would help keep the sled from overheating. I owned an 06 vk pro for a couple of years and did about 8000 km on it. I now have the 08 model with the hi/lo trans. having owned widetraks for the past 18 years and I do a lot of backcountry stuff the steering wasn't such an issue although with this sled i had to make a number of adjustments to get it so as it is not to bad. I have always found the steering on a widetrack to be an issue the other benifits make them a good sled for me.
air19
Pro
Thanks Wayne, I'll look for the shield.
Went out grooming another 26 miles today, again keeping the rpms between 4000 and 5000, and no overheating problems. Of course it was zero degrees Farenheit.
I wish the transmission shifted smoother. I was pushing it today taking my heavy drag out in 6 inches of new snow. I had to do a lot of back and forth when I got stuck and there were many times when the transmission shifting lever was stuck. I'd inch forward a bit then wait for the rpms to calm down and try it again. Eventually it would shift down to reverse.
I'm going to try a number of things to help with the steering. First I'm going to swap my Flexi-Skis over as soon as I get some parts from Simmons. Second I'll work with my dealer on adjusting the suspension to get more weight up front. Third I'm looking into a TiddTech gooseneck hitch for my groomer.
For this gooseneck setup, ideally I would like to put it where the passenger seat was. The back rack is already filled with a big box carrying my chainsaw, shovel, and other tools. I was looking at the passenger seat area which is above the exhaust and noticed some weight warnings to not put more than 11 pounds on this. Makes sense since the plastic covering the exhaust doesn't look that strong. But then I started looking at the passenger seat and thought I could create a mount similar to the seat. The four mount points for the passenger seat can probably take 200 lbs of weight, so it's a matter of distributing the gooseneck hitch weight over these same four mounts.
Anyone done anything similar to put something heavy in the passenger seat area? Or am I missing something here?
Went out grooming another 26 miles today, again keeping the rpms between 4000 and 5000, and no overheating problems. Of course it was zero degrees Farenheit.
I wish the transmission shifted smoother. I was pushing it today taking my heavy drag out in 6 inches of new snow. I had to do a lot of back and forth when I got stuck and there were many times when the transmission shifting lever was stuck. I'd inch forward a bit then wait for the rpms to calm down and try it again. Eventually it would shift down to reverse.
I'm going to try a number of things to help with the steering. First I'm going to swap my Flexi-Skis over as soon as I get some parts from Simmons. Second I'll work with my dealer on adjusting the suspension to get more weight up front. Third I'm looking into a TiddTech gooseneck hitch for my groomer.
For this gooseneck setup, ideally I would like to put it where the passenger seat was. The back rack is already filled with a big box carrying my chainsaw, shovel, and other tools. I was looking at the passenger seat area which is above the exhaust and noticed some weight warnings to not put more than 11 pounds on this. Makes sense since the plastic covering the exhaust doesn't look that strong. But then I started looking at the passenger seat and thought I could create a mount similar to the seat. The four mount points for the passenger seat can probably take 200 lbs of weight, so it's a matter of distributing the gooseneck hitch weight over these same four mounts.
Anyone done anything similar to put something heavy in the passenger seat area? Or am I missing something here?
