trlbrkr
Extreme
I just spoke with Doug at http://www.yellowstonetrack.com/default ... page_id=61 about a groomer and his thoughts on using an ATV compared to a sled for grooming. He used a Polaris ATV 700 for 2 years and found it slow and would get covered in snow from the tracks in powder conditions now he is using the Viking and very happy with it. The overheat light does come on occasionally with his big groomer and he will stop and throw a avalanche shovel of snow on the radiator and the light will go out for the next 5 miles or so. He confirmed that there is an optional radiator available that people are installing.
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
Please post the P/N of this H-D rad that people are whispering about. That appears to be the solution to the low-speed grooming cooling problems.
trlbrkr
Extreme
I called 2 dealers and they could not find an accesory cooler for the Viking? Time to improvise?
air19
Pro
My dealer has ordered the optional radiator package from Yamaha for the VK Pro. I will get the part number and description for it tomorrow and pass the information on to everyone.
The owner of my dealership (All Around Power in St. Johnsbury, Vermont) took my sled out for three hours of testing over the last two days. Conditions - about an inch of snow on the trails, so not total hardpack and temperatures around 30 degrees F. He was pulling a lighter drag than mine with less teeth, so less pulling resistance. Over three hours of testing he couldn't get it to overheat, but he was pushing it hard and got stuck half a dozen times.
That led to his recommendation that for my particular application we need more coolant and coolant surface, therefore the optional radiator package.
It will take a couple of days to get here and install, then I'll report on my tests with it. During the install they will be flushing and filling/bleeding the cooling system and testing it out again.
In the last couple of days I did actually rethink about the 4 stroke sled vs. tracked ATV debate again. And after a lot of hard thinking and some key input from others, I still really want to use the 4 stroke sled, so hopefully we can get the cooling issue solved for my particular application.
The main reason I'm still a sled guy is for a couple of reasons: 1) I am a one machine operation. I can't afford multiple machines, so I need the best all around machine for many different conditions. 2) I really prefer the riding position and visibility of a sled over an ATV. I've ridden both and I have more riding positions on a sled that I can use during a long day compared to the forward position on an ATV. I also have better visibility looking back at the groomer. With the G2, I need to pay attention to where all the groomer teeth are hitting the snow and be ready to make adjustments. To get the most out of this groomer, it really helps to make adjustments, therefore I need good sitelines. 3) The VK Pro has all the torque and pulling power I need. Yes a tracked ATV might have more, but I'm no longer hurting for pulling power. 4) So the main ATV advantages left are better steering and cooling. On the steering front I've almost got that under control. I've done a lot of modifications and I'm waiting on two more, after I get the cooling under control. First a gooseneck hitch, and second some weights that I can put on or take off the front end depending on conditions. 5) Finally two people who have groomed many more miles than I have (Doug from Yellowstone, and Eric from ABR Trails), and have used tracked ATVs for grooming for a couple years, are still sled guys - that says a lot.
The owner of my dealership (All Around Power in St. Johnsbury, Vermont) took my sled out for three hours of testing over the last two days. Conditions - about an inch of snow on the trails, so not total hardpack and temperatures around 30 degrees F. He was pulling a lighter drag than mine with less teeth, so less pulling resistance. Over three hours of testing he couldn't get it to overheat, but he was pushing it hard and got stuck half a dozen times.
That led to his recommendation that for my particular application we need more coolant and coolant surface, therefore the optional radiator package.
It will take a couple of days to get here and install, then I'll report on my tests with it. During the install they will be flushing and filling/bleeding the cooling system and testing it out again.
In the last couple of days I did actually rethink about the 4 stroke sled vs. tracked ATV debate again. And after a lot of hard thinking and some key input from others, I still really want to use the 4 stroke sled, so hopefully we can get the cooling issue solved for my particular application.
The main reason I'm still a sled guy is for a couple of reasons: 1) I am a one machine operation. I can't afford multiple machines, so I need the best all around machine for many different conditions. 2) I really prefer the riding position and visibility of a sled over an ATV. I've ridden both and I have more riding positions on a sled that I can use during a long day compared to the forward position on an ATV. I also have better visibility looking back at the groomer. With the G2, I need to pay attention to where all the groomer teeth are hitting the snow and be ready to make adjustments. To get the most out of this groomer, it really helps to make adjustments, therefore I need good sitelines. 3) The VK Pro has all the torque and pulling power I need. Yes a tracked ATV might have more, but I'm no longer hurting for pulling power. 4) So the main ATV advantages left are better steering and cooling. On the steering front I've almost got that under control. I've done a lot of modifications and I'm waiting on two more, after I get the cooling under control. First a gooseneck hitch, and second some weights that I can put on or take off the front end depending on conditions. 5) Finally two people who have groomed many more miles than I have (Doug from Yellowstone, and Eric from ABR Trails), and have used tracked ATVs for grooming for a couple years, are still sled guys - that says a lot.
air19
Pro
Yamaha VK Pro Radiator Kit
The part number for the radiator kit is Yamaha VK1-00-RAD-01-00. It's not cheap, retail is $578 in US dollars. My dealer has stepped up again and is helping me out on some of the cost and the install. The part arrived today, so hopefully they will get it installed early next week and it will finally solve my cooling problems.
My dealer has definitely stepped up to the plate to get this solved. My complaint now is with Yamaha if this is what it takes to get the VK Pro cooling under control. There is nothing I'm doing out of the ordinary that a good work sled shouldn't be able to handle. If this additional radiator kit is what is needed to provide proper cooling for the VK Pro, then why isn't it packaged in with the sled? Yamaha, read your own marketing about how you promote the VK Pro, and ask yourself if you can't live up to that without this additional $500 radiator kit, then something is wrong.
If you are listening Yamaha, please package this radiator kit into the 2009 model for future users. Adequate cooling is one of the top three requirements for any good work sled to be competitive.
The part number for the radiator kit is Yamaha VK1-00-RAD-01-00. It's not cheap, retail is $578 in US dollars. My dealer has stepped up again and is helping me out on some of the cost and the install. The part arrived today, so hopefully they will get it installed early next week and it will finally solve my cooling problems.
My dealer has definitely stepped up to the plate to get this solved. My complaint now is with Yamaha if this is what it takes to get the VK Pro cooling under control. There is nothing I'm doing out of the ordinary that a good work sled shouldn't be able to handle. If this additional radiator kit is what is needed to provide proper cooling for the VK Pro, then why isn't it packaged in with the sled? Yamaha, read your own marketing about how you promote the VK Pro, and ask yourself if you can't live up to that without this additional $500 radiator kit, then something is wrong.
If you are listening Yamaha, please package this radiator kit into the 2009 model for future users. Adequate cooling is one of the top three requirements for any good work sled to be competitive.
Jack_Shaft
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
+1 Sir. I agree totally.
Take detailed pics once it's installed.
Take detailed pics once it's installed.
air19
Pro
Second Radiator Installed
Picked up my VK Pro from the dealer today. I now have a second radiator installed. It's up front, just like you would expect in a car. It's a nice setup and it gets good airflow from the two opening in the cowl up there.
The second radiator is about 2/3rds the surface size of the first one, and it appears slightly deeper. And there is certainly a lot more coolant in the overall system now.
There is a second fan now, right behind the second radiator. This fan is not tied into the thermostat, it is activated by a new switch I have on my dash. It pulls air through more powerfully than the first fan behind the first radiator. Yamaha's installation procedure had them take over my 12V outlet and use that electrical connection for the fan. It draws enough juice that they didn't want the user to run both the fan and a 12V accessory. And the fan is wired so it won't run unless the engine is running. My dealer recommended I turn it on and just leave it on whenever I'm grooming.
The dealer took the VK Pro for a 15 mile test drive before handing it over. It was 45 degrees F outside. He wasn't pulling any drag and didn't have the second fan on, just relying on the additional coolant and cooling surface - no problems.
It has really warmed up in Vermont this week. Day time temps around 40 degrees F. Weather forecasts say it will cool down by the weekend, and when it does I'll give it a good test with my groomer.
My first impressions are that the installation was well thought out by Yamaha, and I have probably doubled the size of my overall cooling system.
Here are some pictures of the installation. I'll show one picture of the first radiator and a couple of the second radiator to hopefully give you some perspective.
Picked up my VK Pro from the dealer today. I now have a second radiator installed. It's up front, just like you would expect in a car. It's a nice setup and it gets good airflow from the two opening in the cowl up there.
The second radiator is about 2/3rds the surface size of the first one, and it appears slightly deeper. And there is certainly a lot more coolant in the overall system now.
There is a second fan now, right behind the second radiator. This fan is not tied into the thermostat, it is activated by a new switch I have on my dash. It pulls air through more powerfully than the first fan behind the first radiator. Yamaha's installation procedure had them take over my 12V outlet and use that electrical connection for the fan. It draws enough juice that they didn't want the user to run both the fan and a 12V accessory. And the fan is wired so it won't run unless the engine is running. My dealer recommended I turn it on and just leave it on whenever I'm grooming.
The dealer took the VK Pro for a 15 mile test drive before handing it over. It was 45 degrees F outside. He wasn't pulling any drag and didn't have the second fan on, just relying on the additional coolant and cooling surface - no problems.
It has really warmed up in Vermont this week. Day time temps around 40 degrees F. Weather forecasts say it will cool down by the weekend, and when it does I'll give it a good test with my groomer.
My first impressions are that the installation was well thought out by Yamaha, and I have probably doubled the size of my overall cooling system.
Here are some pictures of the installation. I'll show one picture of the first radiator and a couple of the second radiator to hopefully give you some perspective.
Attachments
trlbrkr
Extreme
That should work.
The new Bearcat Z1 has the radiator in the front similar to a car.
I noticed you have the rubber flap over the carburetors. In the service manual it recommends uncovering them by flipping the flap forward if it is warm and the snow is not blowing.
The only other item that would be helpful is a temperature guage so you can see when the temp. is rising and find out at what temp the warning light is set to come on
The new Bearcat Z1 has the radiator in the front similar to a car.
I noticed you have the rubber flap over the carburetors. In the service manual it recommends uncovering them by flipping the flap forward if it is warm and the snow is not blowing.
The only other item that would be helpful is a temperature guage so you can see when the temp. is rising and find out at what temp the warning light is set to come on
Tom Lee
Extreme
Its been a few days since your last update on the overheating problems. How did the new rad install work out? I would expect that this would eliminate any heat problems even if there was no tunnel heat exchanger on the machine. (I too have a vk pro (2006 model instead tho) and have never had an overheat problem.) I have just cobbled together a groomer to groom my trail into where I cut and haul firewood. I very roughly copied your groomer in a very loose fashion and was absolutely amazed at how well it worked out. I will post pics later if anyone is interrested. It is mostly made from rectangular steel scrounged from my Yamaha dealers ATV and snowmobile crates. (Recycled Green Machine?) Anyway I hope this gets you back on track with your grooming business.
air19
Pro
Thanks Tom,
Since I got the machine back from the dealers, the temperatures haven't been cold enough to go out. Monday and Tuesday look possible and if so I'll give it a good test.
Definitely I look forward to pictures of your groomer.
Since I got the machine back from the dealers, the temperatures haven't been cold enough to go out. Monday and Tuesday look possible and if so I'll give it a good test.
Definitely I look forward to pictures of your groomer.
wayne
Extreme
- Joined
- Mar 3, 2005
- Messages
- 67
Tom, I would love to see a picture of your groomer if possible as I am in the process of gathering up some material to make one . I have seen a few different types used in this neck of the woods that seem to work okay.
air19
Pro
Cooling system passed a hard test today
I went out grooming today for the first time with my expanded cooling system in the VK Pro and it worked great under a hard test.
Conditions - 27 degrees F, 1 inch of loose powder on top of a hardpack trail. It rained hard the entire day on Saturday, temperatures dropped on Sunday created a very hard trail surface, and we got a dusting of snow on Sunday night.
I thought this would be a great test of my modified VK Pro pulling my big G2 groomer with the teeth heavily engaged in the snow. I went on my regular 5K loop with the long hill, going around 7 times for a total of 35K. I was also moving at a good clip, 12-15 mph with the rpms between 4500-5000 in low gear. I had the teeth engaged in the snow the entire time going up and down hills. I had the strong fan behind the second radiator on the entire time, and I left the regular fan behind the first radiator off - except for when it might have gone on based on the thermostat, which didn't happen today. I had my ice scratchers down for the hyfax also.
Never a hint of overheating. The engine was running fine, and I kept it in low gear the entire time. This was a three hour continuous test where I didn't let up on the engine or the pulling resistance, except for a couple of breaks to check under the cowl and give my thumb a rest. And on every successive pass the knives were digging in a little farther into the base.
The end result was a very nice skiable trail with about three inches of workable snow on top of an ice base. By mixing the loose powder with the top inches from the base I was actually able to create a much more stable snow surface that was very skier friendly.
This is great news! Three hours of constant pulling and teeth engagement on hardpack is the toughest stint I'll need to do. As a comparison when I was grooming with my '99 fan-cooled Skandic SWT, it could not do this loop with the knives down constantly. I had to raise them on every uphill to remove the resistance. With the Skandic I used to have to change my direction and turn those uphills into downhills by doing the loop backwards. Net result would take twice as long. That's where the VK Pro's torque and now proper cooling will save me a lot of time in these tough conditions.
The second radiator for the VK Pro is an expensive solution, but it has given me the cooling capacity I need for my hardest grooming scenario. Now if only Yamaha would package this radiator kit in with all new VK Pros, and give a discount for older VKs to upgrade then they would have a very solid offering in this workhorse segment. Sort of depends how much they want to start leading in this segment and get a lot more riders, or continue to just follow behind Ski-Doo and pick up a few converts like me because I wanted to switch dealers.
I went out grooming today for the first time with my expanded cooling system in the VK Pro and it worked great under a hard test.
Conditions - 27 degrees F, 1 inch of loose powder on top of a hardpack trail. It rained hard the entire day on Saturday, temperatures dropped on Sunday created a very hard trail surface, and we got a dusting of snow on Sunday night.
I thought this would be a great test of my modified VK Pro pulling my big G2 groomer with the teeth heavily engaged in the snow. I went on my regular 5K loop with the long hill, going around 7 times for a total of 35K. I was also moving at a good clip, 12-15 mph with the rpms between 4500-5000 in low gear. I had the teeth engaged in the snow the entire time going up and down hills. I had the strong fan behind the second radiator on the entire time, and I left the regular fan behind the first radiator off - except for when it might have gone on based on the thermostat, which didn't happen today. I had my ice scratchers down for the hyfax also.
Never a hint of overheating. The engine was running fine, and I kept it in low gear the entire time. This was a three hour continuous test where I didn't let up on the engine or the pulling resistance, except for a couple of breaks to check under the cowl and give my thumb a rest. And on every successive pass the knives were digging in a little farther into the base.
The end result was a very nice skiable trail with about three inches of workable snow on top of an ice base. By mixing the loose powder with the top inches from the base I was actually able to create a much more stable snow surface that was very skier friendly.
This is great news! Three hours of constant pulling and teeth engagement on hardpack is the toughest stint I'll need to do. As a comparison when I was grooming with my '99 fan-cooled Skandic SWT, it could not do this loop with the knives down constantly. I had to raise them on every uphill to remove the resistance. With the Skandic I used to have to change my direction and turn those uphills into downhills by doing the loop backwards. Net result would take twice as long. That's where the VK Pro's torque and now proper cooling will save me a lot of time in these tough conditions.
The second radiator for the VK Pro is an expensive solution, but it has given me the cooling capacity I need for my hardest grooming scenario. Now if only Yamaha would package this radiator kit in with all new VK Pros, and give a discount for older VKs to upgrade then they would have a very solid offering in this workhorse segment. Sort of depends how much they want to start leading in this segment and get a lot more riders, or continue to just follow behind Ski-Doo and pick up a few converts like me because I wanted to switch dealers.
trlbrkr
Extreme
I have followed your process this season with interest in my own future purchase of a grooming machine. Fortunately the snow has held out with all the trips back to the dealer and the many suggestions implemented you have methodically solved the problems for yourselve and other owners. Congrats
YETI
Extreme
Glad to see you got it figured out to bad it took so long and the cost. I agree yamaha should have this as a free option or atleast help with the cost. the light grooming I did in low would over heat the sled 6 to 9 mph in high range 9 to 12 it did not overheat. So I say there is not enough coolant in the sleds.JMO
Tom Lee
Extreme
Here are some quick pics of my homebuilt groomer rig. It works quite well considering it was designed at the same time as it was being built during 4 or 5 evenings. Hardly anything was measured, just eyeball engineered. Id like to see some pics of how others have built theirs.
