I REALLY don't get it.

[pwa]

Its a sad day when you start to compare a new Yamaha to an old Cat. Then you really know you are behind.

What most of the people say is that the trail sleds has had an issue off inner ski lifts for a decade and some Yamaha people has stuck their heads in the sand. Now they have addressed that problem, fine.

skoalring11 tells people about the problem with his Nytro and some people doesn't even care to respond. No everything Yamaha does is so great, jadi jadi jadi.

I think Yamaha has done some efforts for the trail machines and the performance of those. But I can not see that you are so blind that you dont see that:

* there are no Yamaha MTX worthy the name Mountain
* there is no sport sled above Phazer
* the crossover section is a joke, what is Apex XTX? A trail machine with long track...

As a 80 percent off track driver I see what the other people complaining about. The weight issue, the handling issue and so on.

The only Yamaha I could think of today is Phazer RTX with turbo. That would be a fun machine.

 

[fourload]

Drifter, Nice comments. People can find something to bitch about on any sled. I think the new sled is super high tech and will probably be a rocket even if it has only 160hp. Handling and ride should be great too.Price-OUCH!!!![/url][/list][/list][/code]

 

[peterdb]

X2 Drifter. all good comments and ALL made calmy and with REASON

 

[XIpyretta]

A little off topic but anyone notice the ski stance on the Apex XTX? is that a type O?

Ski Stance (ctr. to ctr.) in. 48.4 in (APEX XTX)

42.7 in (APEX SE)

 

[journeyman]

Here is a short piece I recently read in Snow Tech Magazine which kind of sums it up:

" EACH SNOWMOBILE MANUFACTURER IS GOING TO DO WHAT THEY ARE CAPABLE OF DOING WHILE MAKING A BUCK AT IT. THEY'RE NOT IN THE BUSINESS TO BUILD WHAT WE WANT, THEY ARE IN BUSINESS; THAT MEANS TRYING TO MAKE MONEY, NOT LOSE MONEY.

Also now I know why the fella which I know well , that is on the Lions Club at Eagle River made the comment about $15 grand sleds. He said one of the mfg's had said that things are really tough in this market and even though 10-12 grand for top of the line machines seems like alot....they really aren't making money at it. To be honest he said that $15 grand is more where things should be....and here we are. The combination of bad winters , a bad economy and the EPA regulations has put us here.

Now I don't want to argue the global warming stuff, but I do believe that snowmobiles are a WAY SMALL issue when it comes to emissions. The pollution these things emit is so small on a grand scale it wouldn't even show up on a scientists graph.

As for Ski-Doo. They all have their place in this sport. I like the Doos but I am very perplexed with their motor issues. Their number one selling replacement part is their 800 motor and their number two is their 1200 motor. The 1200 is built way to light duty and if you try and mod it with boost there is a fine line.....and it explodes. This comes right from the mouth of a head mechanic at a large Mpls. dealer.

 

[bluemissile]

skaol you're nytro chassis has not been around for four years i have and 06 and it is different. the 06 and 07 are the same you're chassis started in 08.

 

[jlemieu1]

Everyone wants:

More technology
More horsepower
More traction
Better handling
New this
New that

Yet when a company delivers, it's not good enough, or too expensive. REALLY? Do these things come free or do you get money back if you add them? No. Yet people cry FOUL!

You say "not in this economy". REALLY? How do think the manufacturers are fairing in "this" economy? Sales are down 35%-50% in the industry. Lower sales mean lower earnings. So price increases, especially for new technology are unavoidable.

When you compare the two Apex's side by side, there is no comparison. More changed than just adding power steering. You have, without question, the most technologically advance snowmobile in the world...bar none.

Plus, when you compare a 2011 Apex to a 2010 Arctic Cat Z1 turbo, there is less than a $500 difference. With the performance improvements, 10% torque, 5% horsepower and the tech imporvements, exup variable exhaust, more aggressive skis, EPS, just to name a few, you have nearly 160 normally aspirated horsepower in a sled that previously did respectably well aganst the 170hp Z1 in performance, yet handled much better. Now with all the improvements, the bar has been raised even further. I would rather have no turbo in the same hp range personally. Plus with the handling improvements, this sled is the premium sled in it's class. Technology comes with a price.

Alot of the blame also lies on the U.S. Government. This global warming scam has cost the American tax payer billions of wasted dollars. That is reflected in what you pay for every consumable and non-consumable product, including your snowmobile.

A half ton pickup for $40 grand??? REALLY?

Great write up.

 

[Wisco4Toke]

the emissions from a single snowmobile can equal that of 100 automobiles

Two-stoke engines are highly polluting. The lubricating oil is mixed with the fuel, and 20% to 33% of this mixture is emitted unburned into the air and snowpack (MDEQ 2004). Also, the combustion process itself is relatively ineffi cient and results in high emissions of air pollutants (NPS 2000). Because of these two reasons, two-stroke snowmobiles emit very large amounts of carbon monoxide (CO), unburned hydrocarbons (HC) and smoke (MDEQ

the vast majority of snowmobilers in the U.S. use the out-dated twostroke technology. Two-stoke engines are very polluting and the risk to human health has been well documented. If land managers are concerned about air pollution and its effects on human health, snowmobile use should be limited and/or transitioned to less polluting four-stroke engines.

 

[Honk]

I have thought of this new sled as of all the rest, from the first four stroke in 03 till now. They continue to get better every year. I love the caddy reference, and see many similar traits. Although my DTS is a step ahead of my Apex, as The heated steering wheel really works in the car, and so do the seats. As far as heavy! I have never owned a car that rides as well as the big fat Caddy. And that gos for the Apex too, its not to heavy to me! Its just right! My buddies Skidont feels to light, and buonces all over. I would not own one. Period. We must Pay to Play,or stay home.

 

[snowman4]

Everyone wants:

More technology
More horsepower
More traction
Better handling
New this
New that

Yet when a company delivers, it's not good enough, or too expensive. REALLY? Do these things come free or do you get money back if you add them? No. Yet people cry FOUL!

You say "not in this economy". REALLY? How do think the manufacturers are fairing in "this" economy? Sales are down 35%-50% in the industry. Lower sales mean lower earnings. So price increases, especially for new technology are unavoidable.

When you compare the two Apex's side by side, there is no comparison. More changed than just adding power steering. You have, without question, the most technologically advance snowmobile in the world...bar none.

Plus, when you compare a 2011 Apex to a 2010 Arctic Cat Z1 turbo, there is less than a $500 difference. With the performance improvements, 10% torque, 5% horsepower and the tech imporvements, exup variable exhaust, more aggressive skis, EPS, just to name a few, you have nearly 160 normally aspirated horsepower in a sled that previously did respectably well aganst the 170hp Z1 in performance, yet handled much better. Now with all the improvements, the bar has been raised even further. I would rather have no turbo in the same hp range personally. Plus with the handling improvements, this sled is the premium sled in it's class. Technology comes with a price.

Alot of the blame also lies on the U.S. Government. This global warming scam has cost the American tax payer billions of wasted dollars. That is reflected in what you pay for every consumable and non-consumable product, including your snowmobile.

A half ton pickup for $40 grand??? REALLY?

I think drifter has a good point, but you have to remember not everyone can afford $15,000 or even 10,000 for a sled. Yes every company is out to make money but I'll tell ya what I was going to buy a new Yamaha for my Father in 2011, NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. I can afford it and our family loves snowmobiles, but to spend that kind of money on a snowmobile when you can go out and find a perfectly good used or left over one is just plain DUMB. All of the other manufactures have good sleds and every model has its issues, whether its motor problems or exhaust issues. I just think that Arctic Cat, Polaris and Skidoo will benefit greatly from this because I will be looking at everything but a NEW 2011 Yamaha. I hope a nice left over comes our way. Good luck Yamaha your going to need it.

 

[vice108]

great post. This will be the most sophisticated sled on the snow. We all want more power, but remember a few things:

1) The people on this site (myself included) represent the real hardcore enthusiasts that always want more power. We are really a small niche group in the big picture.

2) As others have stated its likely this sled will indeed sport an increase in HP to around 157 or so as we have seen in the vector and Nytro.

3) Stats don't mean anything!!!! Performance is what counts. How many years have guys been saying the Apex is gonna get left behind because of the new Polaris 800, or the Skidoo XP 800, or the F8, or the Z1 Turbo. Guess what - every year these new sleds come out and the 150 HP Apex is still kicking asses! The fact is, our 150 sled is regularly beating Cats big horse power turbo. Their 170+ HP sounds nice on paper, but on the snow the Apex is right there. Now the Apex will be even faster/quicker than before.

 

[**sj**]

the emissions from a single snowmobile can equal that of 100 automobiles

Two-stoke engines are highly polluting. The lubricating oil is mixed with the fuel, and 20% to 33% of this mixture is emitted unburned into the air and snowpack (MDEQ 2004). Also, the combustion process itself is relatively ineffi cient and results in high emissions of air pollutants (NPS 2000). Because of these two reasons, two-stroke snowmobiles emit very large amounts of carbon monoxide (CO), unburned hydrocarbons (HC) and smoke (MDEQ

the vast majority of snowmobilers in the U.S. use the out-dated twostroke technology. Two-stoke engines are very polluting and the risk to human health has been well documented. If land managers are concerned about air pollution and its effects on human health, snowmobile use should be limited and/or transitioned to less polluting four-stroke engines.

Good point..but whats to be had with all the snowblowers,weedwhackers and chainsaws?

I think skidoo's etec technology is an excellent compromise(if they could just keep an 800 twin together)...and polaris is making their attempts as well....
I first switched to a fourstroke out of guilt as yo what its doing to the environment...all those gallons of oil and unburned fuel...

here's a thought...what happens to all the tires worn...the tire dust? thats a real environmental problem..

 

[**sj**]

add to this the problems manufacturers are faced with...a declining market...raw materials increasing..dealer network problems..government emission mandates...its probably nearly impossible to turn a profit ...therefore..
engineering dollars will be stretched...what we see this year from yam is old ...they have something in the barn we wont see for another 2-3 years most likely...they;ve had the eps for a while...stretched the current machines to the limit...

it would be one thing if the market was strong and growing and they were slowly spooning out the goods...
I think they are in bear mode...

 

[Wisco4Toke]

Good point..but whats to be had with all the snowblowers,weedwhackers and chainsaws?

I think skidoo's etec technology is an excellent compromise(if they could just keep an 800 twin together)...and polaris is making their attempts as well....
I first switched to a fourstroke out of guilt as yo what its doing to the environment...all those gallons of oil and unburned fuel...

here's a thought...what happens to all the tires worn...the tire dust? thats a real environmental problem..
_________________

What about these???

Where are your facts??

 

[SharkAttak]

here's a thought...what happens to all the tires worn...the tire dust? thats a real environmental problem..
_________________

What about these???

Where are your facts??

real good point