Making the move to 4 stroke....

[heckhole]

Hey everyone... I am considering the leap over to 4 stroke & due to costs, the Skidoo 1200 & Cat Z1T are out of question.

I started riding 4 years ago on a 97 Mach 1 700 triple, bought a spare 96 Yamaha Vmax 600 XT & have since acquired an 05 Mach Z 1000sdi.

I LOVE my 05 Mach Z. It took a little bit of work to get it running right, some of you may know they are finicky machines and require more TLC than most, but with the SC4 suspension & Ski-Doos reputation for well handling machines, it's the perfect balance for me. I like solid steering, it handles like it's on rails and can even take the whoops pretty well, well enough that my X-package Rev & XP buddies aren't getting away from me and more often than not I'm the one waiting for them. While it takes less effort on those sleds, I'm not exactly impressed by this. I ride for the thrill and don't mind being completely gassed at the end of a long day of hard riding.

However, I feel like I'm on borrowed time with my 1000sdi 2 stroke. They are already notorious for letting loose (but I have my own personal opinions as to why, I don't think it's so much design flaw as it is maintenance error).

The idea of having a crank bathed in oil makes me drool. I love wrenching on my sleds, my buddies supply the parts and I fix their sleds for free, but the one thing I hate doing is rebuilding 2 stroke engines. Why? A full rebuild for most 2-strokes runs in the $1500 or less range, while a 1000sdi full rebuild is going to be $2,000+ and the availability for cranks is SPARSE and not many shops rebuild the cranks anymore. So, price combined with parts availability, mixed in with about an 8 week riding season (if weather permits, usually more like 4-5 good weeks of riding)..... I don't want to downgrade to my 96 Vmax (sold the 97 Mach) while I fix my Mach Z.

If you ask around on the Ski-Doo/Cat forums, they all appreciate Yamahas engines but all have the same thing to say about the suspensions, often the word used to describe them is 'junk' 'pig' or 'sucks balls'.

I like heavy sleds, they are predictable and stable, especially when coming down from whoops, entering & exiting corners, etc. I don't like the 'light' and 'flickable' sleds, however the whoops & bumps get pretty nasty on my local trails. I don't want to bottom out my shocks on the smallest of bumps like I could on my 97 Mach or Vmax XT. My 05 Mach can take a pretty big hit before it bottoms out, it has 0 ski darting, it's stable and just a very SOLID sled.

With that said, are the Yamaha suspensions REALLY as poor as others say they are? I realize I'll be stepping down at least 20hp from my 05 Mach Z, but engine reliability is something I desire, I can deal with the loss of 20hp with clutch work, especially since RX1's are around for $3,000.

I'm looking to spend between 3-4,500, but I also don't want something with 80hp that weighs 500lbs. Will I cry about switching to a Yamaha chassis?

Give me some quality feedback!

 

[smitdog55]

Hey heck Hole! Well I just sold my Mach z 2006 and after feeling exactly the same way you do (on borrowed time) loved the mach and its power and handling however after doing a ton of research and talking to some normal sled riders and dealers made the switch to a 2012 apex xtx which is sitting in my garage now and I'm pretty sure you will be very happy with any yamaha you buy. One thing you will notice working on these engines is a lot tougher than a 2 stroke however i have been told or sold that they are basically maintenance free. Good luck in your search and i would say give it a try the worse thing that happens is you sell it down the road and go back to a doo.

 

[Ruckus]

Yamaha has great, reliable engines. Most of the sleds are seriously overweight for the power supplied by the 4-stroke engine though. The skis are unacceptable, as is the track and slide wear is a major concern as well. I can only speak for the Phazer (which I have owned for 4 seasons now) but the suspension is not of high quality. I've broken both rails, multilple dog bones, multiple H-arms, A arm bushings, tie rods and ball joints. The steering has so many linkages it is impossible to get the slop out. Its top-heavy and underpowered. Somehow, it is still a blast to ride...just not so much to repair. The sled has to be nearly dismantled to change the oil, for example. If you are a groomed trail rider, Yamaha makes an awesome machine. If you are in the backcountry pow with off-camber sidehilling they are seriously notorious for heading straight down the fall line. Get yourself a Jacobson roll-over valve so the oil doesn't pour out if you turn it over (I feel it is unacceptable for a manufacturer to allow 4 liters of oil to spill out on the snow). You won't be wrenching on the engine, but that's about it. Read all you can on here and learn as much about the machine you are looking at before you buy. Ask lots of questions, there are some "true blue" guys on here who will have nothing bad to say about anything with tuning forks on it but there is plenty of information on the sleds shortcomings if you look. I would say it depends on your riding style. Flatland groomed trail torque-freak, or backcountry guru. Let your riding style decide.

 

[kinger]

I'll keep this short:

You will fall in love with the engine (apex)

You will hate the first ride

Take your time, do the standard mods and you will enjoy it as much or more then your mach

Budget $1-2K for suspension mods or new rear suspension and you will never ride anything else again.

I knew a friend with a Mach 1000 and my sled after I set it up would out handle, out race, and out perform the mach in every way, he even admitted that, especially after it blew up.

Dont worry about the 20hp the apex is as fast once set up and more fun corner to corner then a mach.

BTW this is all midwest trail riding.

 

[pro116]

Welcome to the site.
I seen you mentioned rx1.
The 03 are 04's don't ride that great compared to the newer suspensions.
The suspension is basically the same as your 96xt but longer shocks.
In 05 they came out with the mono suspension and then went on to the Apex in 06.
The 05 's ride decent but takes some tweaking with the right spring and shoc valving.
If you are looking for a 03-04 be careful some of them burn oil.Yamaha updtaed the piston rings in 05 to solve the problem.
Coming from a mach z rev chasis,You problay won't like the seating position on the rx1's.The apex is a lot more like the revs but also is a little pricier then the rx1.


Please take a moment to fill in your profile location.It's located at the top of the screen under profile.Thanks

 

[Mighty]

The Yamaha engines are superior. The fit and finish of the sled is also superior to anything out there. But that's it. Owning an 06 MachZX I can tell you first hand that it was the finest handling fastest sled I have ever owned. Awe inspiring confidence in its handling. I have owned every model Yamaha 4-stroke to compare with the exception of the Nytro XTX. The only reason I sold the mach was the same reason you are; I felt the engine was a Ticking Time Bomb.....

 

[kinger]

I just dont want people to think that Yamaha's CANT handle they can and very well with some mods and attention to set up.

Out of the box everyone will feel like a tank

$80 13mm sway bar
$0 set up of front end
$100 revalve of monoshock
$80 pivot risor to move bars forward to allow you to tuck into the tank

Start with firm foam seat from RTX if over 6' tall.

That list can make a 100% improvement in handling from stock and close or as good as a mach

 

[maim]

if the time is taken to set up the suspension properly, they ride really well and the slides last. it took me 8-10 hrs of adjusting and testing before i had it riding and handleing how i wanted it to with help from mrsled and others.

the stock skis are not as bad as some think but the aftermarket ones do improve the floatation off trail over the stockers.

the 12/13mm swabar upgrade is a really good idea as it keeps the skis planted more firmly and makes the sled more stable.

i do run olins but the stock shocks where actually pretty close in setting for how i ride.

i loaned it to my brother last season for a sled day at the school he teaches at. the teacher that operated it last ran a polaris storm with the full shock package. he was almost ready to ask me how much i wanted for the sled because he loved how it handled and performed.

 

[heckhole]

Thanks for the responses.

I am definitely going to keep the 05 Mach Z. The sled suits my riding style perfectly. I just don't want to have to rely on it to carry me through an entire season with their cloudy reputations.

Anyone that has been on an 05-07 Mach Z can tell you in stock form, it's solid as a rock on the trails. I can come flying into corners and with just a little body english, point the skis and it will go wherever you want and with only 96 studs it's still solid and accellerates straight, the track does not blow out sideways often.

The main reason I have looked at the RX1 is the prices locally, they range from $2500-4k with less than 3,000 miles on them. While I don't expect it to handle the trails the same way as my Mach, I would hope it's SIGNFICANTLY better than my 96 Vmax yet has solid ski pressure and minimal darting.

 

[Mighty]

I just dont want people to think that Yamaha's CANT handle they can and very well with some mods and attention to set up.

Out of the box everyone will feel like a tank

$80 13mm sway bar
$0 set up of front end
$100 revalve of monoshock
$80 pivot risor to move bars forward to allow you to tuck into the tank

Start with firm foam seat from RTX if over 6' tall.

That list can make a 100% improvement in handling from stock and close or as good as a mach

Close? I don't think so. As good?? Definately not. Again, I'm speaking from experiance.

 

[kinger]

Well its all subjective anyway, your idea of handling is different then mine. I can't drive the mach through the woods as fast as my apex. Some guys think handling is how easy the steers others think its how much ski lift as it relates to rider input, others think stutter bumps.....you get my point

 

[Mighty]

Well its all subjective anyway, your idea of handling is different then mine. I can't drive the mach through the woods as fast as my apex. Some guys think handling is how easy the steers others think its how much ski lift as it relates to rider input, others think stutter bumps.....you get my point

Agreed

 

[heckhole]

Someones idea of 'handling' is subjective. My feeling of handling is solid ski pressure, minimal darting and being well balanced. A tippy sled & high speeds = date with a tree where I ride.

I have a few lines on some RX1's for 3k even. The RX1 is the only Yamaha I have any basic knowledge about. Is there another model in the 3-4k range that may suit my HP needs & has a fairly upgradeable suspension?

 

[Mighty]

Someones idea of 'handling' is subjective. My feeling of handling is solid ski pressure, minimal darting and being well balanced. A tippy sled & high speeds = date with a tree where I ride.

I have a few lines on some RX1's for 3k even. The RX1 is the only Yamaha I have any basic knowledge about. Is there another model in the 3-4k range that may suit my HP needs & has a fairly upgradeable suspension?

Look into the 05 Warrior. You will love the 136 inch skid. In 05 Yamaha updated the rings do to oil consumption issues on 03-04.

 

[whitedust1]

Someones idea of 'handling' is subjective. My feeling of handling is solid ski pressure, minimal darting and being well balanced. A tippy sled & high speeds = date with a tree where I ride.

I have a few lines on some RX1's for 3k even. The RX1 is the only Yamaha I have any basic knowledge about. Is there another model in the 3-4k range that may suit my HP needs & has a fairly upgradeable suspension?

Look into the 05 Warrior. You will love the 136 inch skid. In 05 Yamaha updated the rings do to oil consumption issues on 03-04.

X2 05 Warrior is better than RX1 but no Apex or Attak in rider position. Earliest Attak is 06 look for 1 under $5K..... Maybe?