Michigan Trail Signage CHANGES!!

[dox06]

signs

Not to stir it anymore than already said, but just keep this in mind guys. Each year our trail permits keep going up. Yes the trails are great in some areas, but not in all. Then where does all the money go for these permits. Obviously not to pay for the signs. Not like the sport that we love is not exspensive enough, but it would be nice to know that what we are paying for is going to make the trails better all the way around.

 

[thor452]

I often wonder if a bridge gets bad because of the signs eveyone slows down at the sign and that makes a mess and then slams on brakes at the bridge and makes a huge mess and the grabs the throttle on the other side making a mess and then has to grab the brakes again cause of the mess on the other side because of the other sign then grab throttle again and make a whole new mess. dont get me wrong bad idea to remove warning signs but on a grade if the yellow signs are on the bridge and it is two lane i think the warning signs only make more mess. but would rather have the mess then a werck.

 

[sheetwright]

If the snow cooperates this year I will be using this instead. I know goverment budgets are tight, but to cause personal harm or death to save money is not how you get people to slow down. Heck better off adding more cops or dnr and let them write more tickets if they are truly seriuous about raising money and making us safer, or aware of our riding habits. This is just plain crazy

 

[Scooter02]

Thanks Rock for the link. I just sent them an email, I hope everyone else does the same. Maybe, just maybe, they'll get it through that this was a bone headed move.

 

[Yamanimal]

If they're worried about someone be caught liable couldn't they mark trAils and trail passes as a "'ride at own risk" ?
Or have pass holder sign a release of sorts? Taking signs down is nuts.

 

[dmaxx]

I have always appreciated the trail signage in Michigan and feel that it makes for a safer experience. With the type of weather we often encounter. warning of a sharp curve or narrow bridge in blowing and blinding snow may prevent serious injury. Common sense will tell you to slow down in incliment weather, other factors may contribute to accidents. Why remove a safety net that was put up for a reason? As far as the concept of slowing people down, this wlll not prevent the wild ones out there. We have all seen them, the ones that will pass you on a blind curve or race side by side on a narrow curvy trail. Do you honestly think that the removal of these signs will have any effect on them? You can be certain that accidents will result from this brainless action.

 

[SRXSRULE2]

Got my MSA mag today , Very disappointed in the decision to remove several important signs from the trail .
Deer crossing
Narrow trail
bridge ahead
Winding trail (s curve ) sign
ALL CHEVRON"S
two way traffic
Narrow Bridge


I believe this makes it inherently more dangerous to ride all together.
Anyone thinking this is a great idea has never ridden a snowmobile .
It will change the way we ride but also, thee speed racers shouldn't cause the whole snowmobiling population of Michigan to be less safe.
I also heard the reasoning for this is to keep anyone from being liable in the case of a corner not being signed properly under the previous rules.

Not excited at all why take down signs and throw them away to "MAKE US SAFER" is what the article in MSA said.

I love the sport but this is disturbing why pay 45 dollars for a trail permit and another 65 for registration just so they can make our trails more primitive. What a crock of crap .
Might be the last nail in the coffin for me.
I don't ride over my head as I ride near the back of my group. But corners will still be signed but NO CURVES "any change in directions of less than 90 degrees".

Not good at all imo, here in Ontario we are going the other way as far as signage and safety go.

Not sure who made the decisions you're talking about but it is definitely a step backwards and then some imo

Really? I kinda thought our signing had been getting worse over the years, seamed trails were better marked when I was younger.

 

[RoyalBlue]

If the snow cooperates this year I will be using this instead. I know goverment budgets are tight, but to cause personal harm or death to save money is not how you get people to slow down. Heck better off adding more cops or dnr and let them write more tickets if they are truly seriuous about raising money and making us safer, or aware of our riding habits. This is just plain crazy

Come on out to The Black Hills in South Dakota we would love to have you , no trail permits here , and we actually pay people a decent wage and benefits to keep the trails in top condition , all trails are groomed every day.

This area is overlooked , riders keep going to Togwotee that is a lot of extra miles , and way higher prices , we also have 3 Pro Yamaha Dealers in the area.

Trails open 12/15/12 , Il leave the light on for you.

 

[Rockmeister]

You are welcome for the info guys, please let MSA know how out of whack this no sign idea is.

Personally, I don't have a serious issue with the trail permits.
On the surface it looks like they are really expensive, but when you look at the actual numbers, they are a pretty good deal overall.
One permit covers the cost of grooming something like 8 miles. Once.
Yet I ride thousands of miles every year.
Not a bad deal.
It's only because we all share the costs as a group that it works.

I DO have a problem with paying groups to groom that either don't, or do very poorly.
I personally raised holy &*77 with the Munising area over this exact subject last year.
It DID change!
Am staying on it to make sure the change to doing what they are paid to do, sticks.
Do the same in your area, if a group is SUPPOSED to groom and aren't, ask WHY?
If you get excuses, ask others higher up, WHY?
Keep asking.
Drive them nuts with honest intelligent questions.
Point out that it borders on fraud to get paid for something, then not do it.

I often wonder if a bridge gets bad because of the signs eveyone slows down at the sign and that makes a mess and then slams on brakes at the bridge and makes a huge mess and the grabs the throttle on the other side making a mess and then has to grab the brakes again cause of the mess on the other side because of the other sign then grab throttle again and make a whole new mess. dont get me wrong bad idea to remove warning signs but on a grade if the yellow signs are on the bridge and it is two lane i think the warning signs only make more mess. but would rather have the mess then a werck.

Actually it is the other way around, the bridge ahead signs are to warn of hard objects (the bridge) ahead, and to warn of most likely a tighter trail
The secondary effect is to warn you of a possible rough trail.

The whoops at the bridges are caused by two things.
1) The bridges are generally narrower & force most traffic to the center of the trail rather than spread out across the trail.
2) Most bridges are flexible and "give" a bit when you go over them, so the snow base never quite sets on them like it sets on the rest of the trail.
They also have different temperatures under them than the rest of the trail, this sometimes makes them extremely soft.

Basically as a few sleds pass the bridge after grooming it gives a bit and the snow moves easier, making a small bump.
A small bump will most always turn into a larger and larger one with more traffic.
Once it gets a bit larger, the first one will start a second one after it, second one creates a third, the third creates a fourth, etc.
The bump spacing is mostly determined by the natural resonance of our suspensions.
The concentrated traffic in the center of the bridge greatly speeds this process up.
You can see this same concentrated traffic effect wherever a trail narrows also.

So when you see the bridge signs (or used to) you are not seeing the cause of the bumps, but do (did) know to watch out for the bridge & the resultant bumps.

You will see the same whoops without the signs, but with no or little warning.

 

[DigitalFusion]

Come on out to The Black Hills in South Dakota we would love to have you , no trail permits here , and we actually pay people a decent wage and benefits to keep the trails in top condition , all trails are groomed every day.

This area is overlooked , riders keep going to Togwotee that is a lot of extra miles , and way higher prices , we also have 3 Pro Yamaha Dealers in the area.

Trails open 12/15/12 , Il leave the light on for you.

Maybe that was the SD tourism board in ninja form, but I agree with this post 100%. The Blackhills in SD are not only the best place I have ever ridden, but the people out there for the most part are 'Minnesota Nice', which is a term us Minnesotans use to describe the type of people that just accept you as a friend before they even know who you are. You can drive down any random back street and anyone of the locals who happens to be outside will waive to you. The hotels, the saloons, the local gas station, doesn't matter... everyone is extremely friendly. You do not need an out of state pass, as long as you have current registration on your sled from any state, its good to go. The trails are a blast to ride and take in the views, and the signage/wanrings are done meticulously. Trail maintenance is another area SD does extremely well. Every single night around 4, 4:30 I think the groomers are out in force, with so many lights flashing around them for safety, you'd either have to be blind or a complete moron to miss them.

This is a state that cares about rider safety and enjoyment. Perhaps some of the higher-ups over there in Michigan should learn from them.

 

[rocky18]

If the snow cooperates this year I will be using this instead. I know goverment budgets are tight, but to cause personal harm or death to save money is not how you get people to slow down. Heck better off adding more cops or dnr and let them write more tickets if they are truly seriuous about raising money and making us safer, or aware of our riding habits. This is just plain crazy

Wisconsin businesses will love this new law.... Michigan businesses will not!

 

[Nick1945]

If the snow cooperates this year I will be using this instead. I know goverment budgets are tight, but to cause personal harm or death to save money is not how you get people to slow down. Heck better off adding more cops or dnr and let them write more tickets if they are truly seriuous about raising money and making us safer, or aware of our riding habits. This is just plain crazy

Come on out to The Black Hills in South Dakota we would love to have you , no trail permits here , and we actually pay people a decent wage and benefits to keep the trails in top condition , all trails are groomed every day.

This area is overlooked , riders keep going to Togwotee that is a lot of extra miles , and way higher prices , we also have 3 Pro Yamaha Dealers in the area.

Trails open 12/15/12 , Il leave the light on for you.

Now I see why you moved from Michigan, congrats

 

[dan wilson]

As a groomer on Michigan trail system,people need to go back to riding the trail's,not attacking from corner sign to corner sign,there have been many meeting's on this over the last couple of year's,no disrespect,but you could have been involved with this change,there was a alot of people involved with this,not just the m.s.a,you can also go to the d.n.r page and see the new signing handbook and look at with a open mind,cost was not a factor in this!stop at the m.s.a booth at us-131 and talk to them if it make's you feel better,they all will be at the show this weekend.JUST MY TWO CENT'S!

 

[kinger]

We rode the black hills and its everything everyone said. One exception I had was the total of 350 miles of trails, the rest is off trail which to me looked like a mine field of stumps. We covered the entire trail system twice in two days and were bored after that. Unless we missed some other connection point?? We stayed at rec springs very nice people there.

Its funny I was on a trip last week to lower MI on the lake MI side and then we took the ferry to milwaukee and we commented on the road signs were poorly marked in WI vs MI LOL However the trail signs in WI are outstanding. We always appreciated the signage in the UP of MI seems silly ot take them down. Thanks to all the volunteers who continue to put up with the BS and keep those trails going!

 

[Nick1945]

You are welcome for the info guys, please let MSA know how out of whack this no sign idea is.

Personally, I don't have a serious issue with the trail permits.
On the surface it looks like they are really expensive, but when you look at the actual numbers, they are a pretty good deal overall.
One permit covers the cost of grooming something like 8 miles. Once.
Yet I ride thousands of miles every year.
Not a bad deal.
It's only because we all share the costs as a group that it works.

I DO have a problem with paying groups to groom that either don't, or do very poorly.
I personally raised holy &*77 with the Munising area over this exact subject last year.
It DID change!
Am staying on it to make sure the change to doing what they are paid to do, sticks.
Do the same in your area, if a group is SUPPOSED to groom and aren't, ask WHY?
If you get excuses, ask others higher up, WHY?
Keep asking.
Drive them nuts with honest intelligent questions.
Point out that it borders on fraud to get paid for something, then not do it.

I often wonder if a bridge gets bad because of the signs eveyone slows down at the sign and that makes a mess and then slams on brakes at the bridge and makes a huge mess and the grabs the throttle on the other side making a mess and then has to grab the brakes again cause of the mess on the other side because of the other sign then grab throttle again and make a whole new mess. dont get me wrong bad idea to remove warning signs but on a grade if the yellow signs are on the bridge and it is two lane i think the warning signs only make more mess. but would rather have the mess then a werck.

Actually it is the other way around, the bridge ahead signs are to warn of hard objects (the bridge) ahead, and to warn of most likely a tighter trail
The secondary effect is to warn you of a possible rough trail.

The whoops at the bridges are caused by two things.
1) The bridges are generally narrower & force most traffic to the center of the trail rather than spread out across the trail.
2) Most bridges are flexible and "give" a bit when you go over them, so the snow base never quite sets on them like it sets on the rest of the trail.
They also have different temperatures under them than the rest of the trail, this sometimes makes them extremely soft.

Basically as a few sleds pass the bridge after grooming it gives a bit and the snow moves easier, making a small bump.
A small bump will most always turn into a larger and larger one with more traffic.
Once it gets a bit larger, the first one will start a second one after it, second one creates a third, the third creates a fourth, etc.
The bump spacing is mostly determined by the natural resonance of our suspensions.
The concentrated traffic in the center of the bridge greatly speeds this process up.
You can see this same concentrated traffic effect wherever a trail narrows also.

So when you see the bridge signs (or used to) you are not seeing the cause of the bumps, but do (did) know to watch out for the bridge & the resultant bumps.

You will see the same whoops without the signs, but with no or little warning.

I ride thousands of miles each year also..... some of them with you..... .....