Ted Jannetty
TY 4 Stroke God
It has come to my attention that several mountain guys are seeing engine failures and no one they talked to seems to have an explaination for it,
So here is my take on the whole thing.
Having been an engine builder for 27 years I have a pretty good Idea what is causing it.
You take an engine that was designed to make 150 hp you put a turbo charger on it, now it makes 300 + depending on boost level.
If you double the power you double the heat production in both the coolant and the engine oil, some will add extra cooling for the antifreeze some won't, but no one I talked to or seen has thought about oil cooling or capacity.
In a short burst this is not a real problem but for guys who hold the throttle wide open for a minute or more at a time the engine oil temps go out of site and the metal to metal contact becomes a reality and rods fail.
It is like this if you double the power you need to double the cooling capacity in both the coolant and the oil I would also strongly suggest more oil capacity which you would gain with a large engine oil cooler.
Some of the Turbo kits and supercharger kits I have seen have smaller than stock oil tanks and this is a serious mistake for anything that runs under full power for more than a few (5-10) seconds.
I hope this information is helpful and I will be glad to answer any questions and elaborate on what I said so far.
So here is my take on the whole thing.
Having been an engine builder for 27 years I have a pretty good Idea what is causing it.
You take an engine that was designed to make 150 hp you put a turbo charger on it, now it makes 300 + depending on boost level.
If you double the power you double the heat production in both the coolant and the engine oil, some will add extra cooling for the antifreeze some won't, but no one I talked to or seen has thought about oil cooling or capacity.
In a short burst this is not a real problem but for guys who hold the throttle wide open for a minute or more at a time the engine oil temps go out of site and the metal to metal contact becomes a reality and rods fail.
It is like this if you double the power you need to double the cooling capacity in both the coolant and the oil I would also strongly suggest more oil capacity which you would gain with a large engine oil cooler.
Some of the Turbo kits and supercharger kits I have seen have smaller than stock oil tanks and this is a serious mistake for anything that runs under full power for more than a few (5-10) seconds.
I hope this information is helpful and I will be glad to answer any questions and elaborate on what I said so far.
I agree with Ted on this issue.
We always put aftermarket oil pans on our BIG motors to hold more oil and keep the engine temps down.
We always put aftermarket oil pans on our BIG motors to hold more oil and keep the engine temps down.
Need for Speed 2
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
and they all think its detonation causing this. i guess 15lbs for short bursts is possible travis moore. 18666kms on mine and she keeps going and going and going.
Ted Jannetty
TY 4 Stroke God
When the oil reaches a certain temp it actually runs away from the heat, I forget what that number is and it varies with Oil type.
peteracing
Expert
One can also say that the stock oil cooler (coolant to oil) is actually heating the oil when there is no aditionnal coolant coolers on sled!.
Need for Speed 2
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
ted are some of the guys miss reading rod failures and assume it is detonation acting as metal to metal on the rod due to the wedge of oil that protects the rod and crank. we had these engine failures on some of our supercharged boat engines .rods bearing failure due to detonation oil wedge in relationship to cylinder pressure.
Ted Jannetty
TY 4 Stroke God
Need for Speed 2 said:
I need more specifics on you boat engines to make a determination.
As I stated Detonation can and will be easily detected in the top half of the engine long before it affects the rod bearings.
Engine oil temps can be directly blamed for engine failures but most people don't think about it, they usually blame oil pressure or detonation.
Ted.
Need for Speed 2
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
ted these engines were heat soaked to the extreme we were unable to detect detonation. the oil beeing to its heat threshhold and then the detonation we concluded after 7engine failures it was a combination of excessive oil temps but then the dredded detonation lack of oil and viscosity we assumed the oil wedge or lack of it wiped the rod bearings out then catastrphic from there.to the point one engine put a rod down into the bottom of the boat stuck through the hull.
Travis Moore
Expert
Need for Speed 2 said:
Why is my name in the middle of your post?!
T
I questioned that in my head also Travis...I figured you 
someone off? 
Who is making aftermarket oil tanks? There is plenty of room to go bigger.
someone off? Who is making aftermarket oil tanks? There is plenty of room to go bigger.
ken_climb
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
As far as I know, Apex mountain turbo engine failures are very rare. Any of the few I've heard of are usually install related, or to high of boost for the amount of octane used.
woodsrider
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
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IMO, most of the ones I heard of were due to high boost and low octane.
Need for Speed 2
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
travis you concluded months ago that it wasnt possible and that it would go bang. guess what your wrong.
Ted Jannetty
TY 4 Stroke God
ken_climb said:
NO disrespect, but just because you didn't hear about them doesn't mean they are not happening, I got emails from 2 seperate guys yesterday alone and after talking with them we found just what I suspected, smaller oil tanks on board and less cooling then stock due to replacement tunnels to save weight.
If anything we should be adding oil capacity and more heat exchangers when going to higher power levels and riding in the mountains, these guys are telling me they hold the throttle wide open for up to 5 minutes at a time, that to me is asking waaaaaaayyyyy to much without the extra oil and water cooling.
The bottom line is the turbo kits that reduce oil capacity are part of the problem, then removing heat exchagers is the other, compounded with long pulls.
IN any Endurance racing we add oil capacity, and coolers to the engine, transmission, rear end, even if we are working with stock class racing, this eliminates failures.
Like it or not you mountain guys are ENDURANCE racing your engines with DOUBLE THE POWER AND HEAT PRODUCTION and HALF THE OIL AND COOLING.
That is a recipe for disaster.
Ted, great post! You see this in every form of vehicle tuning... people want the GO, but often are ignorant about the additional cooling required (amongst other things).
If you don't mind (feel free to tell me to shut up), I'd like to add a few thoughts...
I have yet to look, but these engines probably have oil cooled pistons. So not only do you have marginal oil film, but the hot oil is doing nothing but helping the pistons stay nice and hot. Even if one is lucky enough to have the oil hold, that might contribute to some detonation which will surely finsh the job.
It would also be beneficial to see a nice swirl pot/tank for the coolant. The stock plastic reservoir is in an ideal location to be replaced by a decent swirl pot.... might as well keep what coolant is there doing it's job 100%.
If you don't mind (feel free to tell me to shut up), I'd like to add a few thoughts...
I have yet to look, but these engines probably have oil cooled pistons. So not only do you have marginal oil film, but the hot oil is doing nothing but helping the pistons stay nice and hot. Even if one is lucky enough to have the oil hold, that might contribute to some detonation which will surely finsh the job.
It would also be beneficial to see a nice swirl pot/tank for the coolant. The stock plastic reservoir is in an ideal location to be replaced by a decent swirl pot.... might as well keep what coolant is there doing it's job 100%.
