MX helmets, 509 or F4?

[OVR4D]

From Airoh's site:

Aviator 2.1 Technical features:
• Weight of 1150 (L/XL) 950 (XS/S/M) gms.
• Carbon and Kevlar composite shell material
• Two external shell sizes
• Helmet interior anatomically designed
• Painted and UV-coated outer shell
• Removable nose protection
• New Peak design offering more strength and durability
• Adjustable peak with spoiler, featuring two different lengths
• Aluminum double D-ring retention system
• Homologations: ECE 22.05, DOT FMVSS No. 218

Yes, I'm splitting hairs but ... site appears to have conflicting data, as I see 950gms for their XS/S/M sizes ... I have a medium BTW. As for the price, yes they're expensive if you go through their American site. I bought my bucket across the pond and paid 4 bills (including S&H), but that was 2 years ago.

 

[judger101]

How are you staying warm in an MX helmet at temps that low? Certainly there has to be small cracks that bitter cold air is entering bare skin. Right around 10 degrees is the cutoff for me. What is the trick to wearing the MX helmet in very cold weather?

a good balclava ( i use klim), good goggle coverage, and that is all i use. i also ride in some low temps and i can honestly say my face has never once gotten cold.

 

[horkn]

Hjc make a great helmet and has much more experience than 509 does in making helmets.

509 partners with one of the largest helmet manufacturers in the world to build their helmets.. thhey do not own the helmet factory... much like many brands out there.

Yes, afx makes 509 helmets. Afx is not known to make world class helmets.

The afx helmet is really no different in design from the other sno x helmets as far as air flow. I've been wearing MX helmets on sleds for so long I cannot remember, 15-20 years of trail use. Every one of these have been MX helmets with breath boxes added at most. I wear my MX helmets even when it's cooler than most will go out snowmobiling. I can recall several -25 degree without wind chill days, and I've never been cold.

509s marketing dept has done a good job, as people assume its made specifically for snowmobile use.

The label in my 509 Helmet says made by Tong Ho Hsing which is also known as THH. If you look at the THH website it looks the same as the TX-23.

Maybe AFX doesn't make their own helmets either.

THH is a helmet that isn't known to be world class either.

 

[horkn]

How are you staying warm in an MX helmet at temps that low? Certainly there has to be small cracks that bitter cold air is entering bare skin. Right around 10 degrees is the cutoff for me. What is the trick to wearing the MX helmet in very cold weather?

A good balaclava, and goggles that cover your nose and upper cheeks, as well as good Google that fit the helmet well. I also don't have super low windshields on any of my sleds. I run the stock height ones, but I have ridden demo sleds many times with racer low windshields on very cold days.

I wear an arctica balaclava that blocks a lot of wind, and has a deflector built in on most days, but I have an assortment of balaclavas, a neoprene face mask for mega cold days, and a no fog MX mask too. You have to be ready with an assortment of head gear.

 

[horkn]

Well thanks for all the feedback. Seems like many strong opinions, one way or the other. Just like anything, you hope to be satisfied with the product when you plan on using it for many years. That Airho looks really cool, and also expensive.
After researching many brands I decided to go with the Scorpion VX-34. They seem to be pretty well respected especially in the superbike and moto x world, and their price point works for me. I'll report any disappointments if any arise.

Yes, scorpion makes a great helmet. Last year I was torn between the hjc cl x6 and the scorpion vx-34. My wife made the decision easy for me and bought me the hjc for Christmas.

 

[adubs916]

How are you staying warm in an MX helmet at temps that low? Certainly there has to be small cracks that bitter cold air is entering bare skin. Right around 10 degrees is the cutoff for me. What is the trick to wearing the MX helmet in very cold weather?

a good balclava ( i use klim), good goggle coverage, and that is all i use. i also ride in some low temps and i can honestly say my face has never once gotten cold.

X2 klim

 

[wot-75]

Hjc make a great helmet and has much more experience than 509 does in making helmets.

509 partners with one of the largest helmet manufacturers in the world to build their helmets.. they do not own the helmet factory... much like many brands out there.

Yes, afx makes 509 helmets. Afx is not known to make world class helmets.

Nope. THH makes AFX and 509 Polycarbonate (Not their Carbon Fiber).

The afx helmet is really no different in design from the other sno x helmets as far as air flow. I've been wearing MX helmets on sleds for so long I cannot remember, 15-20 years of trail use. Every one of these have been MX helmets with breath boxes added at most. I wear my MX helmets even when it's cooler than most will go out snowmobiling. I can recall several -25 degree without wind chill days, and I've never been cold.

Cool.. I've been quite cold in MX helmets because they vent too well... perhaps your HJC is just a bad mx helmet because it doesn't vent enough? Besides, We're not talking about the AFX helmet here.

509s marketing dept has done a good job, as people assume its made specifically for snowmobile use.

I'm not assuming anything. The helmet is suited to cold weather because of the amount of airflow. I've compared them to many Moto helmets out there and there is considerably less air flow. This may make them warmer moto helmets but it makes them great cold weather helmets.

edit: So I just inspected the AFX helmet that uses the same shell... the 509 helmet has the same shell but completely different EPS liner with LESS venting. I guess it wasn't marketing hype after all...

 

[wot-75]

THH is a helmet that isn't known to be world class either.

Please define "World Class" for us.

THH is one of the largest helmet manufacturers in the world. Several of their brands pass ECC standards (like 509)... the same standard MotoGP requires.... you know, the standard that influenced Snell to change in 2010.

Look, I'm not saying the 509 Evolution helmets are the best in the world, but they are a good helmet especially at $189... with a breath box and a lifetime warranty on the visor.

I'm not saying your HJC helmet is any worse or any better either.. because it's not.

My advice to people is to try a bunch of brands and find out what works for you. Research why your helmet is considered "safe" and don't let marketing hype make your decision. Hell, some may not buy a Klim helmet because they are not even DOT approved.. but I don't think that means they have a garbage helmet. I'm not a fan of the Klim helmet because it was designed to be their adventure touring helmet and (for me) it vents way too much. For guys in the mountains where it tends to be warmer during a lot of the riding season I think it's a great helmet.

 

[Banks93]

Airoh Aviator from Airoh America. At 950 grams, I would argue that it is the lightest helmet on the market today. ECE22.5 rated (the only rating requiring random sample testing from each production run ... not just a one time thing). Great ventilation - almost too cold ... you will not overheat in this helmet. I run with Smith Optics fuel googles and they completely fill the face opening. No sealing issues whatsoever.

That is a sweet looking helmet.

 

[horkn]

THH is a helmet that isn't known to be world class either.

Please define "World Class" for us.

THH is one of the largest helmet manufacturers in the world. Several of their brands pass ECC standards (like 509)... the same standard MotoGP requires.... you know, the standard that influenced Snell to change in 2010.

Look, I'm not saying the 509 Evolution helmets are the best in the world, but they are a good helmet especially at $189... with a breath box and a lifetime warranty on the visor.

I'm not saying your HJC helmet is any worse or any better either.. because it's not.

My advice to people is to try a bunch of brands and find out what works for you. Research why your helmet is considered "safe" and don't let marketing hype make your decision. Hell, some may not buy a Klim helmet because they are not even DOT approved.. but I don't think that means they have a garbage helmet. I'm not a fan of the Klim helmet because it was designed to be their adventure touring helmet and (for me) it vents way too much. For guys in the mountains where it tends to be warmer during a lot of the riding season I think it's a great helmet.

When a moto gp rider starts wearing thh, or afx helmets, then that would be world class. Same statements would apply if they were used in world super bike, or even national race series. Klim's not being even dot rated is worrisome. And no, a thh, or afx helmet is not as good as an hjc. Take a look online for reviews of these helmets. You'll find that thh, afx are inferior in many categories to other brands such as hjc, bell, shoei, etc. 509s are not Snell rated. Snell rating is a higher standard than ece or dot.
As far as you wanting to believe the marketing hype or not, that's ultimately up to the consumer.
Add a breath box to an MX helmet, and you have a snoX helmet. Other minor changes as far as venting or not are just that -minor, and some conditions will call for more or less venting.
But what do I know? I've just been wearing MX helmets on sleds for a long time.

 

[wot-75]

When a moto gp rider starts wearing thh, or afx helmets, then that would be world class.

HJC had to create an entirely new model of helmet (and drastically increase the cost of it) for Ben Spies to wear in MGP. Now Lorenzo wears it. It's about the $$$!! not how "good" the helmet is

And no, a thh, or afx helmet is not as good as an hjc. Take a look online for reviews of these helmets. You'll find that thh, afx are inferior in many categories to other brands such as hjc, bell, shoei, etc.

Again, we are talking about 509 polycarbonate helmets here, not AFX or THH. THH manufactures the 509 Evo helmets to 509's specs. When you can find a bunch of negative reviews of that helmet please get back to me.

509s are not Snell rated. Snell rating is a higher standard than ece or dot.

According to who?

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/27/autom ... d=all&_r=0

"In one comprehensive study of real-world impact performance based on research done for Motorcyclist Magazine, presented by Mr. Thom to the Motorcycle Safety Foundation, a $79.95 helmet certified to Transportation Department standards performed the best of the 32 tested, withstanding the most violent hits while transmitting as much as 67 g’s less impact force to the headform than a $400 Snell-certified helmet.

The M2010 Snell standard will drop its maximum allowable g’s from 300 to 275. It will also adopt graduated-weight headforms."

You see, Snell 2010 standard is a direct result of being called out on their irrational testing methodology... It is now more in line with how ECE has been testing helmets since 1983.

As far as you wanting to believe the marketing hype or not, that's ultimately up to the consumer.

How is it hype when the 509 helmet is actually designed to perform better in cold weather and is plainly evident when looking at the construction of other helmets that share the same shell??

Add a breath box to an MX helmet, and you have a snoX helmet.

Technically you still have a Moto helmet with a breath box that some SnoX racers wear. I'm sure it works great for them.. they need something that vents like a dirt bike helmet. If you wear a balaclava then it probably doesn't matter anyway. I like how the 509 goggles' face foam is sculpted to integrate with the helmet cheek pads. This means there are no gaps and I don't need to wear a balaclava.

Other minor changes as far as venting or not are just that -minor, and some conditions will call for more or less venting.

I'm not debating that your helmet works great for you. I will debate you on the misinformation you are spreading about the quality of 509 helmets and your own arbitrary definition of what makes a helmet "world class" or not.

 

[horkn]

http://ultimatemotorcycling.com/motorcy ... -05-snell/

Take a look at this article above.

Hjc didn't create that helmet just for Ben Spies FWIW.

Also if you don't wear a balaclava, how do you keep your chin, and neck warm? A neck gaiter? Taller zip up jacket?

Like I said before, I do not get cold while wearing a MX style helmet. It has been as cold as 35 below at least once while I've been out.

 

[wot-75]

Hjc didn't create that helmet just for Ben Spies FWIW.

Yeah, they actually did.. it was all his input that developed the helmet...and then they mass produced it for the public.. we won't even talk about all the problems he had with his HJC helmets during his (short) MotoGP career.

Have a read:
http://ultimatemotorcycling.com/hjc-rps ... et-review/

Also if you don't wear a balaclava, how do you keep your chin, and neck warm? A neck gaiter? Taller zip up jacket?

I wear a No Fog system

http://ultimatemotorcycling.com/motorcycle-helmet-standards-explained-dot-ece-22-05-snell/

Take a look at this article above.

That article says nothing to support your claim that Snell is superior to ECE. In fact, the author specifically states that the point of the article was not to determine which rating is superior. The fact of the matter is that prior to Snell 2010, the Snell standard required extremely hard shells in order to better dissipate impact energy. The ECE approach has always been that it's the EPS liner (the foam under the shell) that is responsible for that and that harder shells actually hinder the EPS liner from working thereby increasing G forces against the skull. Now, after the scathing article I posted took Snell to task, they decided to change their standards to be more in line with ECE.

Additionally, if "world stage racing" is your litmus test for whether a rating is "worthy" then you must concede that ECE is is every bit as "good" as Snell because MotoGP/WSB/BSB/ETC all require ECE certifications on their riders' helmets. They don't require a Snell rating!

Snell is not the end-all be-all rating for helmets... never has been, never will be. One thing is for sure, it adds a lot of unnecessary cost to the helmet. Now that Snell has changed it's approach to testing I'm confident they are just as safe as ECE tested helmets.

I didn't mean for this to turn into a pissing match but I feel compelled to ensure misinformation about helmet ratings isn't spread and, specifically, about a brand of helmet that I know is every bit as "world class" in terms of fit and finish, safety, and overall construction as the HJC helmet you wear. We haven't even talked about the 509 C2 helmets yet (made by a MFG other than THH btw )

 

[horkn]

Still, hjc did not make the helmet for Ben. They used his input, but I wouldn't say it was built for him solely. I followed his entire racing career, and was there at indy right where his last crash occurred when he had it ended. For now at least.

As to the ratings, Snell is a stricter rating to achieve than dot or ece. The European community typically doesn't care about anyone else's rating scales (or anything non European for that matter), but the FIM recognize snell ratings. As you know, the fim covers both wsbk and motogp.
http://www.smf.org/about

Do you use the MX no fog setup? I have that one, and it only covers the front. The back of your neck would get cold I would assume.

Also, I looked at my hjc tonight. I used a sophisticated invention to close 1 vent at the top of the helmet that I never need while trail riding. Black duct tape on the inside of the helmet under the liner.

 

[wot-75]

As to the ratings, Snell is a stricter rating to achieve than dot or ece. The European community typically doesn't care about anyone else's rating scales (or anything non European for that matter), but the FIM recognize snell ratings. As you know, the fim covers both wsbk and motogp.
http://www.smf.org/about

Yes I know the FIM accepts Snell just like the AMA/DMG accepts ECE ratings.
Snell is not a stricter standard, it's just a much more expensive rating because you have to pay them to certify you. I've never said it's now a bad standard just that they changed it to be more like the ECE standard and I've provided the evidence to back that up.

Do you use the MX no fog setup? I have that one, and it only covers the front. The back of your neck would get cold I would assume.

My no fog wraps around the back of my neck and covers it completely. My jacket collar also goes under my helmet back there.

Also, I looked at my hjc tonight. I used a sophisticated invention to close 1 vent at the top of the helmet that I never need while trail riding. Black duct tape on the inside of the helmet under the liner.

I don't have to plug any vents because my 509 Helmet was designed for cold weather.

I would much rather be riding than arguing on the Internet.