****** o7-o6 warmers.. WARNING meltdown of CPU *******

[yamahey]

Gade- I didn't realize that it was a PWM circuit. That makes sense. But, as you note, going to parallel gives you 4 times the current. If this was more than the ECU could source it would likely damage the device. Since the testing to date says it isn't being damaged, it must be able to provide it. Now, the other issue is power dissipation in the ECU. There is some drop across the device, therefore some power dissipation. At 4 times the current there is 4 times the power dissipation. Over time, the ECU will heat up because of this. At some point it could overheat and fail. This is the danger. Testing has shown that this would likely take a very long time, since nobody has had a failure. Left on high long enough, it probably would. But you can't leave it on high too long or your hands burn. Dropping the setting down lowers the power dissipation. the question is, even if left at a comfortable level (say 2 bars) will it eventually overheat and fail? It seems probably not, since nobody has experienced it yet. But since even at 2 bars the ECU is providing more than the max current the circuit was originally designed for, it seems it is a least possible somebody doing this could someday experience a failure. Not all ECUs are equivalent. They are the same within some minimums and maximums of the characteristics of the chip. If someone does this with a chip that has worst case tolerances on certain characteristics, they could have a failure. As suggested, a circuit could be designed to chop the battery voltage directly with a higher power device. I don't understand why Yamaha didn't do something like this to begin with. They had to know they were marginal on the power to the grips with both the original and the new configurations. Hopefully, they will change it on the 08s.

 

[Hinkman]

All right all you electrical wizards... Why couldn't you use (or maybe someone that remembers more of that crap than I do could design the circuit) a FET or MOSFET to power the grips straight off the battery and drive it with the PWM signal from the ECU so that you could still control them from the handlebars? Seems like it would be easy enough... and would eliminate the high current load on the ECU and allow you to run whatever resistance you wanted in the grips. Should work similar to an electronic speed control in a remote control car. So who's gonna step up and design this?????

I'm actually going to try something like this. I don't have time to work on it at present - too busy with work, and trying to find time to ride. So it will be this summer when I work on it.

But my idea is to use a transistor and a small transformer. I'll use a transformer connected direct to the battery, and boost the voltage from 12V to 18V. I'll then use a transistor that is connected to the output PWM that would normally control the grips. This will control a similar PWM 18V signal from the transformer which will output to the grips.

This way the grips will get the same signal, just boosted to 18V. The control for the grips, and the display on the dash will still all work the same. This will allow more heat from the grips without risking damage to any other component. and everything will still function normally.

Gade,
You and I are on the same track, but I think there is sufficient voltage at 12-14Vdc as proven by machzed. I think we actually have to reduce current flow thru the grips to allow them to be put on HIGH from the controller (put a resistor in series). Take a look at this link and see what you think.
http://i107.photobucket.com/albums/m291 ... ircuit.jpg

 

[Bigmax]

Hinkman, I'm not a big fan of the variable resister just because of the extra parts but think that circuit design is basically what I had in mind.

Couple questions... Why the .8 - .9 ohm current limiting resister for the gate? And why are you using a transistor instead of a power MOSFET? Was looking at the IRFZ44 power MOSFET... supposedly you can get at Radio Shack for $3.

 

[Turtle]

KING OF THE LAKE - I have not actually measured the difference between the '06 and '07 bars ... I sold my '06 bars before I ever actually started testing. But from what others have posted, I'm gathering that the '07 bars have a higher resistance that the '06 bars. And based on my calculations, the '07 bars used the same amount of power (per grip) as the '06 bars wire in series. It is my thought that Yamaha originally thought that the cold '06 grips were due to the aluminum hook acting as a heat sink. So they redesigned the '07 bars to eliminate the aluminum hook, but still use the same amount of power. What they needed to do is get rid of the aluminum hook, AND increase the power output. PM me if you would like to get together and due some measurements/testing.

YAMAHEY - I can't tell you whether or not wiring the '06 bars in parallel will damage the ECU or not. We've obviously already shown that it will make more heat, and we've also identified Yamaha's design flaw. But whether or not it will burn up the ECU - I don't know because I don't know what the current limitation are of the ECU.

HINKMAN - Yes you could use a resistor wired in series with the paralled bars to reduce the current draw. And that would work fine. You could size the resistor so that when the heaters are put on high that it provides the right amount of heat for you. The bigger the resistor, the less heat your bars will produce, because you will be reducing the current. However, I feel that this is just a band-aid fix because you would still be drawing more current than what the system was intended for. I personally would like to develop a better fix which would make the bars work the way they should have. And yes, you could also use a MOSFET too. I simply mentioned a transistor as a 'generic' term.

 

[Turtle]

HINKMAN - The schematic provided in the link you had will work just fine. In fact, that is a very nice fix and is sort of what my idea was ... to use the PWM signal to control another circuit to the bars that can actually handle the current draw.

The schematic you have shown would be a very good fix for those who are using the '06 bars. Because when those are wired in parallel, you decrease the current a little bit.

My thought of using a transformer to boost the 12V to 18V was a design I was working on for those of us with the '07 bars because these have a higher resistance than the '06 bars. Which is why they don't work so well.

 

[Hinkman]

Bigmax,
I'm not a big fan of the Var resistor either, but if we want to be able to use the controller thru the full bars, each person would have dial it in with the variable resistor to determine what the actual resistance should be. Then we could replace it with that value & wattage of resistor. This would be subjective of course, each person has a different idea as to what HOT is, so each person would have a slightly different value of resistance.

From what I've read, we need to limit current into the base or it might damage the transistor. This may or may not be true in our case, but I calculated what it should be and put it in just the same.

I went with a transistor simply because it's what I thought of first. I will look into MOSFET's, maybe it's better for this. My transistor 2N3055 was $2.29 at Radio shack.

Thanks for the input, maybe we'll figure this out.

 

[2Blu4U]

HEY YAMAHA!! Look at the engineers that are on this site. Maybe the folks at Yamaha need to start paying some of you guys (TY'ers) the big bucks that these guys at Yamaha are making to design an already phenominal product better. Yamaha would indistputibly own the snow/atv world!! I cant believe how much better my OLD 03 RX1 handles and runs because of this site and the group of very informative guys that are here willing to share any secret they find to make these machines what they should be. Okay, Im done.

 

[KING OF THE LAKE]

Guys, Thought I would clarify one last thing on this issue then I am done. This is fact right from the 06 and 07 service manuals. The 06 apex wiring runs the grip warmers in series. The 07 wiring runs the grip warmers in parallel. With the 06 update for grip warmers, yamaha gives you a adapter harness that converts the wiring from series to parallel just as the 07 sleds come from the factory. The resistance spec of the 06 grip element and the 07 grip element is the exact same - 1.83 to 2.24 ohms at 68 degree f. With these simple facts, to me, proves that it doesnt matter what grip you run, there is noway you are going to burn out the ecu prematurely because the resistance of the 06 and 07 grip are the same and in the end both sleds end up to be wired the same. The 06 grip just is a way more effecient heating element and the bar ends had no effect of how well they worked. Facts right from yamahas service manuals prove it. I also believe that the apex power supply is awsome that is why the 06 grips are so warm at lower settings once it is wired properly. The only thing you are going to burn out is the grips themselves prematurely from running them at too high of settings if above 3 or 4 on your meter scale. Research this out at your dealer in there manuals if you dont believe me. Hope this helps everyones unease. Brian

 

[Coondog2707]

At the risk of annoying Nate or Sled Dog by perpetuating this thread, can anyone give me the Reader's Digest version on what I can do to remedy an 07 Apex GT? Seems most of the discussion revloves primarily around the '06s and how to correct them, but not a whole lot of info on the '07s......

 

[Tork]

Well with your 07, medium windshield, the gauntlets from Rich Motorsports or SkiDoo (those are your options with 07 bars and frankly this works for me down to about 15 below F)

or get 06 bars which is using the Machzed rewire as you should have the 07 harness obviously. The possible shorteneng of the life of the ECU in my opinion is real, so the following is the best one I have seen as a workaround using the rewire worry free

OK, you may have a revolutionary idea here.

If I follow, use the ECU grip output to activate a solid state relay rather than go to the grips. The new SS relay takes the big load to the grips as the output side is wired directly to the battery on common and to the grips on the normally open contact, ECU load is lightened as it is now just a signal to actuate the solid state relay

and.........

the rocker switch on the bar is still usable to vary heat.

Nice elegant approach!!!!!!!! The part that could fail with this now is $20 vs $623

Call some dealers they may have some take-off 06 bars. Complicated situation, I know and sorry about that

Lastly, it looked to me like you came on the board last time and didnt see that we had a very bad day. Lets just keep that as water under the bridge if you wouldn't mind.

 

[Coondog2707]

I am with ya! Thanks for your help!

I'll check with my dealer. Always interested to see if I can further my relationship with them!! So If I can paraphrase you, if I get a set of '06 bars, with my harness, there is no rewire involved, just plug in and go?

 

[Tork]

I am with ya! Thanks for your help!

I'll check with my dealer. Always interested to see if I can further my relationship with them!! So If I can paraphrase you, if I get a set of '06 bars, with my harness, there is no rewire involved, just plug in and go?

By default you will have the rewire, unless that little harness is pulled.

So they will be scorchers at anything above 3 bars and ECU risk is at least possible on any setting.

And yes yes, everybody who is unhappy should call your dealer, no snappy answers in a day then call Yamaha Customer Service

 

[Riceburner]

Tork and Coondog,

Hope this does not cause a stir.
A TY member who has temporarily had his posting rights restricted here has come up with a solution for the 07's.
I am not sure if it is correct or not and do not endorse it as I have not tried it..
However it makes sense to me and although not perfect it looks to me like it will work well and not have any potential ECU side effects.
He will probably post it here when he is back in a couple of days or so .
Since he has refrained from any negative comments about his vacation, I assume he will be back.
In the meantime you can find his cure here.

http://www.hardcoresledder.com/forums/i ... pic=220203

Me for the most part I find the 07 bars OK. However I got rid of the "cool" bug deflector & put on the mid-height windshield and do not spend a lot of time over 75 mph.

Have a look, 87 has also posted exactly what you will need for parts and pictures.



Rice

 

[Sled Dog]

Guys, Please dont take this as an insult to your technical thinking approach to a fix but I feel you are way overboard on this. Let me ask you this - what controls how much power is sent to the grip circuit from the ecu? My belief is the switch on the handle bar that you adjust to control power from the ecu thru a resister circuit. All the grips are doing when power is supplied to them is converting the volts/amps/watts into a heat dissapation. The grips themselves are not drawing power but only accepting the power that is supplied to them thru your adjustment position. Therefore I see no way the ecu going to in any harm of meltdown because it is only supplying power as it should be thru its proper wiring. If you dont think I am right then test this - get a volt ohm meter and hook up to one of the lead connectors that the grips attach. Take readings at differant settings and you will find that the readings will increase as you increase your grip setting. Differant power outage to the grips then creates differant temps that the grips create. Just my thought process on simple electrical power supply. What happens to a light bulb when you only supply 11 volts to it versus 12.5? The light is dimmer because of less power just as the grips are cooler when supplied less power from the ecu thru the switch adjustment on the handlebars. MUSKOKA APEX RTX 07 - Its not that I dont believe you on the bulletin up in Canada, but I think yamaha canada may have put it out to their dealers to inform customers to not modify their wiring of the or any grips before the plug ins for the grips to supply power for them. I think if you tap in somewhere else in the wiring circuit, that may fail the ecu. Can you get me the phone number of your dealer where you saw the bulletin at so I can have them fax me a copy of it and therefore allow me to contact a source at yamaha in the states here to verifiy any potential problems ?Thanks again and sorry it was a long post. Brian

More heat = more power that must be supplied it is that simple. If the grips are getting hotter than they ever have been you can bet they are seeing the most power supplied to them. More power supplied = more heat means more draw on the electrical system.

 

[**sj**]

his thoughts would have been correct if the change in wiring was made POST the switch/control...it is BEFORE the switch/control