OEM Agreement Between Yamaha & Textron

[whitedust1]

We'll I guess I'll be the Debbie Downer here! I see nothing good coming out of the Textron purchase of Cat for the sled divisions of Cat and Yamaha. I for one never had a warm fuzzy feeling about the 5yr OEM agreement between Cat and Yamaha and feel that the Yamaha sled division has been phoning it in ever since! I think the sled divisions and future profits of sleds are very low on the radar for both Textron and Yamaha and there futures are all ready set. Textron got what they wanted out of Cat on the dirt side, I think they'll let the sled side limp along a few more years then pull the plug! I see the bare minimum of investment from Yamaha in there sled division. And since Yamaha hitched there wagon to Cat, what happens to one happens to the other! In corporations of this size it always comes down to dollars and cents and ROI! The big wigs can give there speeches, power point presentations and babble on about brand loyalty and satisfied customer's and spin it anyway they like! But at the end of the day, it's the bureaucrats /bean counters that always get the final say. But hey, what the hell do I know! Remember ""ALL IS WELL""!!!!!!

I don't thnk you are a Debbie Downer just calling it it like it is. I do think the 5 year OEM Agreement of rebranded duplicate sleds was a good move for AC that needed the Yamaha revenue to stay alive and Yamaha to tread water until they could go it alone or get out later if it evolved that way. AC was in big trouble & Textron bought the whole apple to enhance their position on the dirt side as you said....good move for Textron...better move for Textron would be to sell off the AC snow biz to Yamaha now ...get the booger off their finger that they don't want and make a few $$ selling it. The big question is if Yamaha will buy the AC snow biz??? Yamaha won't pay much for whatever they choose to buy from Textron but something is better than nothing if AC does not end well under Textron ownership. Plus Textron has to consider the public ill will if AC is closed under their ownership in a few years. To me AC is better off owned by Yamaha in some form than Textron but Yamaha won't pay much for AC in any form.
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[Farmer 73]

I don't thnk you are a Debbie Downer just calling it it like it is. I do think the 5 year OEM Agreement of rebranded duplicate sleds was a good move for AC that needed the Yamaha revenue to stay alive and Yamaha to tread water until they could go it alone or get out later if it evolved that way. AC was in big trouble & Textron bought the whole apple to enhance their position on the dirt side as you said....good move for Textron...better move for Textron would be to sell off the AC snow biz to Yamaha now ...get the booger off their finger that they don't want and make a few $$ selling it. The big question is if Yamaha will buy the AC snow biz??? Yamaha won't pay much for whatever they choose to buy from Textron but something is better than nothing if AC does not end well under Textron ownership. Plus Textron has to consider the public ill will if AC is closed under their ownership in a few years. To me AC is better off owned by Yamaha in some form than Textron but Yamaha won't pay much for AC in any form.
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When you think about it what is the AC sled division worth? The way I see it, not much! I think it depends what they have in the pipeline for new design! If there is really nothing new all its really worth is what it has in parts and what not it has in stock! If Yamaha believes it should stay in the sled buisness to have something for its dealers to sell in the winter time than its a no brained, buy Cat! If they don't care about the winter sales and their dealers, then it's over!

 

[whitedust1]

When you think about it what is the AC sled division worth? The way I see it, not much! I think it depends what they have in the pipeline for new design! If there is really nothing new all its really worth is what it has in parts and what not it has in stock! If Yamaha believes it should stay in the sled buisness to have something for its dealers to sell in the winter time than its a no brained, buy Cat! If they don't care about the winter sales and their dealers, then it's over!

First and formost Yamaha sled division wants to make money as a profitable business unit then structure their distribution for best sales results. It maybe seem cold but the mfg co. could care less if distribution has sleds to sell during winter season. Bikes and dirt motorsports also sell well in winter and sleds compete with those products for customer purchase priority. Sleds are more of a Canada and USA northern states regional product while bikes and dirt motorsports sell everywhere regardless of season in USA. For Yamaha it all comes down to in or out of snow biz. Purchasing AC snow biz enhances that market position in the view of many including me. IMO if Yamaha does not purchase the Cat sled product line they are out unless they pull a rabbit from their bibs with a new pure Yamaha product line. No one has seen anything like that being tested on the snow so prolly does not exist and that result is Cat or bust for Yamaha's future.

 

[STAIN]

I disagree. I think that Yamaha DOES care about being a 4 season company and that may be thing that keeps the sled division going.

 

[yamadoo]

I think the only reason a shareholder Company does some thing is PROFIT or $ and that is NOT bad, it is business !

So I think Yamaha and all other power sport companies want 4 season as the northern part of the North America and Europe / Asia for that matter can not ride cycles, ATVS, Wave runners etc all year so to keep the doors of the dealers -who they need in the rest of the year, open year round they make and sell snowmobiles. We are not a money making market, to few of us all brands.

Now if it is not profitable in the BIG picture - sustaining the dealerships for year round activity and all lines - they will simply NOT do it. If it is profitable to just build bikes, atvs wave runners we/ snowmobilers are in trouble.

I don't KNOW what Textron or Yamaha are going to do. I am just pointing out it is not going to be what they 'like' but what makes the whole most profitable.

Yamaha does not make or sell any product because they like it, it must be profitable.

MY 2 cents for what its worth

 

[Sasquatch]

Canada is made for sleds and over half are sold there. Boating and Biking are May to October with May and October more for the die hards. November to April is for sleds with November and April iffy most of the time. Wheeling is year round but unlike Bikes and sleds travel is limited. There is 6 to 8 months that is waiting for summer and sleds fill that gap. I have bought 1 motorcycle and it was an old cycle that is now 37 years old as compared to 5 new sleds in the same amount of time. One 98, two 2000 one 2005, and one 2011! 60 to 70 thousand dollars in sleds and a 1,800 dollar Motorcycle. To be fair I looked at a 7,800 dollar 2007 V-Twin but I think my wife needs a newer car first. I did buy a 1,500 dollar 16ft fishing boat with a 35hp Johnson in that time as well.

Now I may be an odd duck but I spend my money on snow as winter is that time of year that sitting indoors by the wood stove is warm but winter depression sets in fast and sledding gets you out and keeps you from slitting your wrists. Summer I can find a ton of things to do outside but other then plowing snow and hauling in firewood sledding is the only break from the winter blues!

I'm not so sure what south of the border does in the winter months but up here ice three to four feet thick and frost up to 6 feet deep in the ground limits most things. Maybe its warming up and maybe sledding is dying a slow death but ice fishing and sledding will last till long after i leave this earth on this side of the border. I would love to buy a new sled or two but there is nothing that has come out that replaces my Apex that is not my Apex. I did think about a 2018 Apex but I have one of those and again the wife needs a car more then I need a sled like mine with different shocks. I so waited for yamaha to wow me and bring out something to die for, that I just had to have so bad, I would beg borrow or steal to get it. Still waiting. Maybe next year?

Maybe some manufacture wants my Money? All Doo has to do is produce a 1200SS with 150hp, Yamaha needs a 150NA sled in a Yamaha chassis and Cat suspension or just drop an Apex engine in a VentureTF. Cat is wowing me a bit with the T-Cat name but its just not enough! For now my Money stays with me!

 

[stevewithOCD]

I disagree. I think that Yamaha DOES care about being a 4 season company and that may be thing that keeps the sled division going.

The big "H" ( that's HONDA for the mentally challenged out there) looked into & actually developed many snowmobiles because they wanted to keep their customers coming back for ALL seasons. I'm going to tell you fellas a story that i've told many times on this site. My bud bought an '06 Apex. It has been & still is a GREAT machine. So good that in '09 he bought a Yamaha FZ-1 motorcycle. 3 years ago he was looking for a 300hp boat motor. After many comparos to E-tec he looked at his Apex & bought a YAMAHA boat motor. That's $24,000 in Yammi's pocket! I'm sure the more things that Yamaha puts DEPENDABLE engines in, the more they build their base.....bigger base means more $$$ spent.....more $$$ to Yamaha.....nuff said

 

[whitedust1]

The big "H" ( that's HONDA for the mentally challenged out there) looked into & actually developed many snowmobiles because they wanted to keep their customers coming back for ALL seasons. I'm going to tell you fellas a story that i've told many times on this site. My bud bought an '06 Apex. It has been & still is a GREAT machine. So good that in '09 he bought a Yamaha FZ-1 motorcycle. 3 years ago he was looking for a 300hp boat motor. After many comparos to E-tec he looked at his Apex & bought a YAMAHA boat motor. That's $24,000 in Yammi's pocket! I'm sure the more things that Yamaha puts DEPENDABLE engines in, the more they build their base.....bigger base means more $$$ spent.....more $$$ to Yamaha.....nuff said

The largest problem within the snomo industry is that snow machines is a shrinking market regardless of brand. Boomers are leaving and the younger crowd at least in the USA Midwest states are NOT buying sleds. 60 inch+ 3D TVs yes as well as boats and ATVs but just not interested in sleds. The industry needs to get the young crowd buying snow machines to keep trails open and to get their kids into the sport. I have tried to generate interest in snowmobiling in the 30 something crowd but they just are NOT interested in even giving it a try. Most of them already have new full size trucks for boat hauling and take beach vacations in winter. I was in Jamacia first week in Feb and it was loaded with Canadians so IDK who is still sleddin other than me? lol

 

[VX1R]

Here's another recently posted article on what the Textron purchase of AC might mean for the future of Yamaha sleds: http://www.snowmobile.com/blog/2017/05/good-news-for-arctic-cat.html

Are we going to see a Yamaha powered Textron branded version of the Yamaha YXZ 4-wheeler?

 

[Curtis Chambers]

The problem is there is no snow. Here in southern Ontario last two years were a total wash out. I had cash waiting for new sidewinder. Could not justify $20000 cash for sled or trade my 2012 truck in and pay cash for new one. I feel this is why no one is buying sleds. I bought my 13 year old 2001 srx 500 last year. So far only one chance to ride in last two years. The price of housing here is going crazy and people are afraid of what trump is going to do.It is too bad no sport is as fun as sledding but prices are going crazy. 20 year olds could get a car for the same price. They can not afford it anymore in most cases.

 

[whitedust1]

Here's another recently posted article on what the Textron purchase of AC might mean for the future of Yamaha sleds: http://www.snowmobile.com/blog/2017/05/good-news-for-arctic-cat.html

Are we going to see a Yamaha powered Textron branded version of the Yamaha YXZ 4-wheeler?

This certainly is an optimistic view based only on the financial assets of both Textron and Yamaha...lol... Obviously Yamaha never would have partnered with AC if it was about their financial assets which has nothing to do with company AR&D budgets or ROI of tooling of new product lines. To me neither Textron or Yamaha are willing to throw money at the snow biz unless an ROI can be shown...so far that has been difficult at best in a shrinking market place thus the lack of comitment to the future of snow biz by both companies...sad but the current state of affairs.

 

[Sasquatch]

The problem is there is no snow. Here in southern Ontario last two years were a total wash out. I had cash waiting for new sidewinder. Could not justify $20000 cash for sled or trade my 2012 truck in and pay cash for new one. I feel this is why no one is buying sleds. I bought my 13 year old 2001 srx 500 last year. So far only one chance to ride in last two years. The price of housing here is going crazy and people are afraid of what trump is going to do.It is too bad no sport is as fun as sledding but prices are going crazy. 20 year olds could get a car for the same price. They can not afford it anymore in most cases.

I think the biggest thing is what came from the AGM, In eastern Ont no one will trailer/haul further then three hours. With a huge Northern system in Ont that has consistent snow unlike the Southern hit and miss or fall and melt, people need to go where the snow is! This past winter I trailer/hauled 4 hours to Manitoba and 10 hours to Hearst Ont and sledded my brains out. I live where the snow is pretty consistent but there is the odd year that gets screwed up! I have trailer/hauled to Northern Manitoba and sledded into Saskatchewan and back!

So I agree with you Eastern Ontario is hit and miss and the reluctance to go where the snow is hinders sales of sleds there. You have the truck you have the sled, north is where the snow is. I met people from Barrie, London, Halliburton and a Citys in Ontario I can't remember this past winter, I also rode with and met people from Manitoba, Alberta and a ton from the US, One even from England (I ride with him every year), like me they really wanted to sled so bad they loaded up and drove (One flew and has his sled stored in Canada). Die Hards will get their fix somehow!

I have to agree also with the poster that says we need to get a new generation interested in sledding. I started sledding well before I was a teen. I rode a Polaris Colt, a Rustler, a Husky (maybe that is got drug by) before I was old enough to buy one of my own. My parents and their friends had sleds had fun on sleds and therefore so did I. We trailer/hauled to events, fish derby's, poker derby's, race's and got together for cook outs. I remember Sledding being about "Family and Friends" getting together for a good time. I took and still take my Kids sledding ( you can't sell our sled Dad! Even if we live 2,000kms away!) and have introduced their boyfriend/husbands to sledding. Our club has a social director and they work hard at getting Family and Friends events happening! We need to build a base again like my Parents did with me!

Lastly the sleds we ride! Our liquid cooled rockets are fun and they have their purpose, but kids need the little sleds and then later the middle sleds. 20,000 dollar rockets with 150 to 200hp are what people see when they look at this sport. Insane power, huge jumps, blinding speed, cornering at break neck speeds all while pounding bumps larger then the porch steps on the edge of control. They need to see and look at 50hp even Grandma can ride it and little johnny can get it unstuck type sleds. Sled commercials and Slednecks have done little to instill a sense of safety and Family Fun. What they see scares the hell out of them, it does not make them want to stand around the trail fire and sing Kum Buya, it does not show the other side of sledding! I love cookouts at warmup shacks or at a trial fire! I love sunsets and even ice fishing used to be a big thing for me. Thats the other side of sledding that needs to be in the forefront!

Its more then one thing that slows sales!

 

[cannondale27]

I think the biggest thing is what came from the AGM, In eastern Ont no one will trailer/haul further then three hours. With a huge Northern system in Ont that has consistent snow unlike the Southern hit and miss or fall and melt, people need to go where the snow is! This past winter I trailer/hauled 4 hours to Manitoba and 10 hours to Hearst Ont and sledded my brains out. I live where the snow is pretty consistent but there is the odd year that gets screwed up! I have trailer/hauled to Northern Manitoba and sledded into Saskatchewan and back!

So I agree with you Eastern Ontario is hit and miss and the reluctance to go where the snow is hinders sales of sleds there. You have the truck you have the sled, north is where the snow is. I met people from Barrie, London, Halliburton and a Citys in Ontario I can't remember this past winter, I also rode with and met people from Manitoba, Alberta and a ton from the US, One even from England (I ride with him every year), like me they really wanted to sled so bad they loaded up and drove (One flew and has his sled stored in Canada). Die Hards will get their fix somehow!

I have to agree also with the poster that says we need to get a new generation interested in sledding. I started sledding well before I was a teen. I rode a Polaris Colt, a Rustler, a Husky (maybe that is got drug by) before I was old enough to buy one of my own. My parents and their friends had sleds had fun on sleds and therefore so did I. We trailer/hauled to events, fish derby's, poker derby's, race's and got together for cook outs. I remember Sledding being about "Family and Friends" getting together for a good time. I took and still take my Kids sledding ( you can't sell our sled Dad! Even if we live 2,000kms away!) and have introduced their boyfriend/husbands to sledding. Our club has a social director and they work hard at getting Family and Friends events happening! We need to build a base again like my Parents did with me!

Lastly the sleds we ride! Our liquid cooled rockets are fun and they have their purpose, but kids need the little sleds and then later the middle sleds. 20,000 dollar rockets with 150 to 200hp are what people see when they look at this sport. Insane power, huge jumps, blinding speed, cornering at break neck speeds all while pounding bumps larger then the porch steps on the edge of control. They need to see and look at 50hp even Grandma can ride it and little johnny can get it unstuck type sleds. Sled commercials and Slednecks have done little to instill a sense of safety and Family Fun. What they see scares the hell out of them, it does not make them want to stand around the trail fire and sing Kum Buya, it does not show the other side of sledding! I love cookouts at warmup shacks or at a trial fire! I love sunsets and even ice fishing used to be a big thing for me. Thats the other side of sledding that needs to be in the forefront!

Its more then one thing that slows sales!

Well said! 2% of the time it's epic conditions or great trails that a guy remembers but 98% of time it's the people you meet and places you go that are what is remembered.

 

[nbsledder]

I think the biggest thing is what came from the AGM, In eastern Ont no one will trailer/haul further then three hours. With a huge Northern system in Ont that has consistent snow unlike the Southern hit and miss or fall and melt, people need to go where the snow is! This past winter I trailer/hauled 4 hours to Manitoba and 10 hours to Hearst Ont and sledded my brains out. I live where the snow is pretty consistent but there is the odd year that gets screwed up! I have trailer/hauled to Northern Manitoba and sledded into Saskatchewan and back!

So I agree with you Eastern Ontario is hit and miss and the reluctance to go where the snow is hinders sales of sleds there. You have the truck you have the sled, north is where the snow is. I met people from Barrie, London, Halliburton and a Citys in Ontario I can't remember this past winter, I also rode with and met people from Manitoba, Alberta and a ton from the US, One even from England (I ride with him every year), like me they really wanted to sled so bad they loaded up and drove (One flew and has his sled stored in Canada). Die Hards will get their fix somehow!

I have to agree also with the poster that says we need to get a new generation interested in sledding. I started sledding well before I was a teen. I rode a Polaris Colt, a Rustler, a Husky (maybe that is got drug by) before I was old enough to buy one of my own. My parents and their friends had sleds had fun on sleds and therefore so did I. We trailer/hauled to events, fish derby's, poker derby's, race's and got together for cook outs. I remember Sledding being about "Family and Friends" getting together for a good time. I took and still take my Kids sledding ( you can't sell our sled Dad! Even if we live 2,000kms away!) and have introduced their boyfriend/husbands to sledding. Our club has a social director and they work hard at getting Family and Friends events happening! We need to build a base again like my Parents did with me!

Lastly the sleds we ride! Our liquid cooled rockets are fun and they have their purpose, but kids need the little sleds and then later the middle sleds. 20,000 dollar rockets with 150 to 200hp are what people see when they look at this sport. Insane power, huge jumps, blinding speed, cornering at break neck speeds all while pounding bumps larger then the porch steps on the edge of control. They need to see and look at 50hp even Grandma can ride it and little johnny can get it unstuck type sleds. Sled commercials and Slednecks have done little to instill a sense of safety and Family Fun. What they see scares the hell out of them, it does not make them want to stand around the trail fire and sing Kum Buya, it does not show the other side of sledding! I love cookouts at warmup shacks or at a trial fire! I love sunsets and even ice fishing used to be a big thing for me. Thats the other side of sledding that needs to be in the forefront!

Its more then one thing that slows sales!

You more than nailed it Sasquatch!!

 

[yamadoo]

WOW Charley you did NAIL it.

If we/they do not turn this back into a FAMILY sport than only those who ride snow cross racer and have deep pockets or sponsors remain and that's not enough for a sustainable market.

I look at all my grand kids and think only old cheep, low powered sleds are in the real sled future. May try a couple of the 120s then scoots for lots of fun.
Although my 2 year old grand son claims the APEX as 'MINE' and his brothers like the Viper and Vector. BUT no way can you put a kid on these high power sleds. Not safe for the child, others and OH ya don't hurt BAPA's (grand pa's) sleds.