Polaris Structure Bonding?????????

[00-NUKE]

I just had to share this. I just found out that Polaris's frames are "structure bonded" AKA Glued Together with an epoxy used by the military in aircraft construction. I was in the military for 6 years as an F-16 fighter mechanic and have some knowledge of this. The epoxy we used was referred to as "Double Bubble". It’s a 2 part epoxy used by the military in aircraft repair. It has strong adhesive properties to Aluminum and resistant to low temperatures. However, like most epoxy’s I fear that in 10 years or so will begin to dry out and separate. Only time will tell. All I can say is WTF Polaris? I've attached both the article on the structure bonding along with the epoxy that I am referring to. Have a good read fellas.

http://www.snowmobile.com/how-to/constr ... -1300.html

http://www.hmcelectronics.com/product/Hardman/04024

 

[HighSpeedLowDrag]

How do you remove parts assembled this way?

 

[Super Sled]

I have a Pro RMK Assault. There is lot's of talk about this on Snowest. When using this Poo can use lots less rivets, equaling less weight. Is it a good idea or bad? Only time will tell, but it certainly is one factor to make a lighter sled.

Btw, it's called "structural adhesive" or "structural acryllic adhesive," aka epoxy'd

The adhesive is Lord's 400 series acrylic adhesive, specifically 406/19, that is used in many items from Aircraft production, boats, to Airstream and other RV's.

Here is more info:
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/show ... k+adhesive

For guys looking to drop weight from their Nytro's this may be part of the solution.

My opinion? I'm on the fence. I can tell you my RMK's chassis is very, very durable and stiff. It feels like it will last forever. But only time will tell. Rivet's are certainly easier to work with in the garage tho, for sure, but even rivets wear out over time.

 

[00-NUKE]

I have a Pro RMK Assault. There is lot's of talk about this on Snowest. When using this Poo can use lots less rivets, equaling less weight. Is it a good idea or bad? Only time will tell, but it certainly is one factor to make a lighter sled.

Btw, it's called "structural adhesive" or "structural acryllic adhesive," aka epoxy'd

The adhesive is Lord's 400 series acrylic adhesive, specifically 406/19, that is used in many items from Aircraft production, boats, to Airstream and other RV's.

Here is more info:
http://www.snowestonline.com/forum/show ... k+adhesive

For guys looking to drop weight from their Nytro's this may be part of the solution.

My opinion? I'm on the fence. I can tell you my RMK's chassis is very, very durable and stiff. It feels like it will last forever. But only time will tell. Rivet's are certainly easier to work with in the garage tho, for sure, but even rivets wear out over time.

Thanks for some clarity on this!
IMO: I can say that I am still not a fan. I'm all for light weight, but adhesive bonding does not have a good record when it come to longevity. I don't consider myself an "average consumer". I'm HARD on my toys. For most people that put 500 trail miles on per year, it might be ok. I still think they'll be gluing them back together in 8-10 years. I'll keep my heavy pig and my peace of mind.

 

[Alatalo]

In my opinion, the big advantage of glued together chassis components is the fact that you can use a completely different design strategy behind many details. This is where the big weight savings can be found. Not in the lack of rivets, as one Yamaha chassis rivet is just little bit more than two grams when installed...

 

[Super Sled]

In my opinion, the big advantage of glued together chassis components is the fact that you can use a completely different design strategy behind many details. This is where the big weight savings can be found. Not in the lack of rivets, as one Yamaha chassis rivet is just little bit more than two grams when installed...

But Poo could've built the Pro chassis with rivets. Are they just testing the waters you think then on this model?

And they started using this adhesive in 2011. In each consecutive model years 2012 and 2013 they have been removing rivets and bonding more parts together with adhesive, while not changing the design at all. For instance, the bulkhead is now joined to the tunnel with adhesive, where originally it was not.

So if they are not changing the design, but are using more and more adhesive in the build process, why is Polaris doing that? My guesses are cost savings, or weight savings or both. I do know the build processes take longer using the adhesive over bolts, rivets, etc., which adds to the build cost.

But one thing is clear, you will see less rivets and more adhesive from oem's in the future on sleds.

 

[Alatalo]

But Poo could've built the Pro chassis with rivets. Are they just testing the waters you think then on this model?

And they started using this adhesive in 2011. In each consecutive model years 2012 and 2013 they have been removing rivets and bonding more parts together with adhesive, while not changing the design at all. For instance, the bulkhead is now joined to the tunnel with adhesive, where originally it was not.

So if they are not changing the design, but are using more and more adhesive in the build process, why is Polaris doing that?

My best guess would be the typical Polaris thing - use the customer as test pilot...

After all, not that many people are involved in chassis design at Polaris and the few that are can't really be requested to know a lot about Formula 1 / aerospace bonding techniques. Because of this they are clearly "testing the waters" more and more every season.

In my opinion, this will get very interesting when they start to use the full potential of this bonding technique...

 

[Nikolai]

There might be a weight savings from steel rivets, but solid aluminum aircraft rivets probably weigh about as much as the adhesive. I don't think I've put a steel rivet back in one my sleds since about 2002.

I thought on of the reasons for adhesive was that Polaris could attain better chassis alignment. Whether that's true or not I don't know.

 

[couch]

I would take a properly bonded joint over rivets any day! Its used in much more demanding applications than sleds will ever see (our 70 ft passenger catamaran uses structural adhesives for most of its assemblies). The bond is spread over the entire join as opposed to individually stressed fasteners and if properly engineered / applied the substrate will break / give before the bond fails! There are many incredible products available.

 

[cannondale27]

I agree but one thing that cant be accounted for is human error.I have no doubt that the glue works if prepped and applied properly.How many times have we seen poor execution of a process cause a failure?Sometimes even a simple application of Loctite on a bolt is neglected leading to catastrophic failure even by Yamaha.I believe we will see this happen.A rivet is much simpler and can be visually verified.

 

[Super Sled]

Have any sleds been falling apart due to misapplied epoxy? I haven't heard of any. Not one.

And I'm thinking Yamaha (and BRP and Cat) will be employing the same adhesive someday to build sleds.....

 

[cannondale27]

Yes never heard of one yet either.Maybe the process is simpler than riveting.Never had a bolt fall out of my 98 srx either but have seen more than one fall out of my Phazer.

 

[linemech31]

I have been working on aircraft that have bonded surfaces for years it saves weight and is very strong. If they did there homework it will be as strong as any rivet and bolt combo. The pitfall is if you incur any damage it is a pain to deal with and will most likley total your sled. Id rather drill out rivets myself.

 

[Phyxius74]

From an assembly point of view it's much more time efficient to use adhesive rather then hundreds of rivets. How ever, I dont think that is the main reason. R&D never listen to what production have to say anyway. Not even when they say things are impossible to assemble

 

[cannondale27]

From what I have seen this glue comes apart easily with a bit of heat so dis-assembly should be easier than rivets.Dont get me wrong I think this glue is the way of the future and have seen how well it works on some Burger Boats.Even allows you to glue dissimilar metals together and helps prevent electrolysis vs bolting.I think that was Plexus glue they use.I just dont trust the factory to ensure its employees get the job done right and it makes me uncomfortable not being able to visually check it like you can a rivet or bolt.