Too much feedback in the bars

[mdkuni]

Just want to see if anyone has any ideas on helping me get a smoother ride.

I am running a 2008 Apex with a ZX2 skid and revalved GYTR shocks up front. I ride aggressive. Problem is, I get a lot of feedback in my handlebars on the 3"-8" stutters. I have adjusted GYTR rebound and compression clickers to about every setting there is as well as the spring preload. The sled handles the big stuff with ease. Not too firm and eats up the large moguls.

The handlebars shake in my hands pretty good. Not sure what else to try. I do have Curve skis on and have been debating if they play any role in this? Only other thing I have considered is switching too dual rate springs in the front.

Any ideas?

 

[kinger]

What sort of feedback are you talking? I ride with my GYTRs on full soft for compression and around 4-5 clicks for rebound and find them awesome. This is with a 13mm sway bar. Your still on stock sway bar?

Is it a vibration your after or like the bars are trying to rip your hands off?

I run the powderhounds and they are so flmsey it wouldn't surprise me if they absorbed some of the bumps a little bit to. By feeling them you wouldn't think they would hold up but they do and I like them a lot.

 

[mdkuni]

What sort of feedback are you talking? I ride with my GYTRs on full soft for compression and around 4-5 clicks for rebound and find them awesome. This is with a 13mm sway bar. Your still on stock sway bar?

Is it a vibration your after or like the bars are trying to rip your hands off?

I run the powderhounds and they are so flmsey it wouldn't surprise me if they absorbed some of the bumps a little bit to. By feeling them you wouldn't think they would hold up but they do and I like them a lot.

Like they are trying to rip my hands off.

I am running the 13MM sway bar.

That was kind of my thoughts as well about the Slydogs. Wonder if the Curves are stiff enough that they don't absorb as much. Although I still feel like I should be able to make an improvement somewhere.

 

[Irv]

I ride with my GYTRs on full soft for compression and around 4-5 clicks for rebound and find them awesome. This is with a 13mm sway bar. Your still on stock sway bar?

quote]

Kinger, just new to a 08 Vector and I am curious on the front shock set-up?
I weigh about 200lbs and I am not sure where my shocks should be set as far as spring pressure/compression go? By the looks of my shocks my springs are compressed more than half way down via the collar and my a-arms are not completely flat, should they be?
I have ridden this sled yet so maybe it is set pretty well for me but the previous owner was approx 30-40lbs heavier than me as well?

Any tips, your weight etc would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[mdkuni]

I ride with my GYTRs on full soft for compression and around 4-5 clicks for rebound and find them awesome. This is with a 13mm sway bar. Your still on stock sway bar?

quote]

Kinger, just new to a 08 Vector and I am curious on the front shock set-up?
I weigh about 200lbs and I am not sure where my shocks should be set as far as spring pressure/compression go? By the looks of my shocks my springs are compressed more than half way down via the collar and my a-arms are not completely flat, should they be?
I have ridden this sled yet so maybe it is set pretty well for me but the previous owner was approx 30-40lbs heavier than me as well?

Any tips, your weight etc would be appreciated. Thanks

 

[kinger]

Maybe we should swap skis and you can see if they help

Otherwise I would send to pioneer and have him work his magic on them, giving them a touch more rebound would help to reduce a lot of that. I do notice that the front does hop over small bumps sometimes rather then soak them up and was going to send my shocks to Bruce with my Zx2 ones when they needed service.

 

[Sno-Xr]

Who revalved your shocks and what did they change?
Im having the same issue with my GYTRs(XTX) and HAD the same problem with my Ohlins on my Viper S.
I had the High speed Compression softened on the Ohlins and it made a huge improvement and plan the same for my GYTRs.
Sno

 

[Irv]

I ride with my GYTRs on full soft for compression and around 4-5 clicks for rebound and find them awesome. This is with a 13mm sway bar. Your still on stock sway bar?

quote]

Kinger, just new to a 08 Vector and I am curious on the front shock set-up?
I weigh about 200lbs and I am not sure where my shocks should be set as far as spring pressure/compression go? By the looks of my shocks my springs are compressed more than half way down via the collar and my a-arms are not completely flat, should they be?
I have ridden this sled yet so maybe it is set pretty well for me but the previous owner was approx 30-40lbs heavier than me as well?

Any tips, your weight etc would be appreciated. Thanks

Sorry,,, clued in to what I did just before I re-opened this post.
I will be PM him instead........

 

[ahicks]

Kinger - that custom valve stack discussed a while back addresses this exact issue as well as some others. It's a really common problem - and it's associated with the compresion stack. The answer is somebody decent with shock valving. To make sure your shock guy is on the same page, maybe request, or tell them you were thinking of, a muti-stage valve stack. Done right, that feed back will disappear....

 

[mdkuni]

Who revalved your shocks and what did they change?
Im having the same issue with my GYTRs(XTX) and HAD the same problem with my Ohlins on my Viper S.
I had the High speed Compression softened on the Ohlins and it made a huge improvement and plan the same for my GYTRs.
Sno

CMP Racing out of Gaylord. I am certainly no shock expert so I can not give you the exact details. I know they were revalved for my riding style and weight. The compression and rebound stack were changed.

 

[Sno-Xr]

Who revalved your shocks and what did they change?
Im having the same issue with my GYTRs(XTX) and HAD the same problem with my Ohlins on my Viper S.
I had the High speed Compression softened on the Ohlins and it made a huge improvement and plan the same for my GYTRs.
Sno

CMP Racing out of Gaylord. I am certainly no shock expert so I can not give you the exact details. I know they were revalved for my riding style and weight. The compression and rebound stack were changed.

If it hasnt been to long since they did them, they may revalve them again at no charge. But I would explain to them what issues you are having.

With mine, they work well in the bigger bumps with compression set 5 clicks from soft.But, like yours, going over the small trail chop they dont react at all. My shock guy thought my Ohlins were packing up(not rebounding) but once he saw the valving, he said I was right about the highspeed valving being to stiff. My GYTRs are reacting the exact same way.

 

[kinger]

Whats your plan mdkuni another revalve?

 

[mdkuni]

Whats your plan mdkuni another revalve?

CMP thinks the valving is good. So that puts me at a loss where to go next. Maybe I will just do as Sno-Xr said and change the high speed compression.

Problem is it cost so dang much to get it done and if it is worse than it means down time during the season.

 

[ahicks]

Sorry to hear you got stuck with a dud shock building company. If they say the shock is right, and you say too much feedback, you are obviously disconnected - for whatever reason. Find somebody else. Your problem is regarding basic stuff. Don't let anyone BS you. It CAN be fixed easily. FWIW, the same thing happened to me early in my riding career. You need to keep trying until you find somebody that will talk to/work with you.... on YOUR level, and it's REALLY worth the trouble to find him!!!

Really want to understand what's going on? Read REX's shocks 101 sticky at the top of the Apex section:

http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0

Particularly regarding the first stage in the compression stack (the first few shims/washers closest to the piston on the compression side. You'll usually see one or two large OD washers closest to the piston, then a smaller one. These form the first stage). While reading to get a grip on what you have going on, don't pay any attention to what position the shock he's talking about is in on the sled. When it comes to valving theory, a shock is a shock, where it's at on the sled isn't important. On the third page, he mentions what I'm trying to tell you about specifically, speaking about the first stage in a multi stage (or progressive) valve stack. This is where what you are calling "feedback" is controlled.....or not..... on ANY shock!!

"If little stutter bumps are making the sled chatter, there is too much low speed damping in compression.

Very likely your shock has single stage valving - unless it has been specifically updated with a multi-stage stack.

It shouldn't be difficult to revalve the shock to really soften off the low speed damping, while keeping the high speed damping where it is now."

REX (not his real name) is brilliant at getting shock theory across on a level I could understand. Those notes led me to a level of understanding that has footballed to the point where I learned to do my own shocks and valving since. I owe him big time for that..... it something I should have done 30 years ago.

Best of luck! If I can be of any help just holler. -Al

 

[mdkuni]

Sorry to hear you got stuck with a dud shock building company. If they say the shock is right, and you say too much feedback, you are obviously disconnected - for whatever reason. Find somebody else. Your problem is regarding basic stuff. Don't let anyone BS you. It CAN be fixed easily. FWIW, the same thing happened to me early in my riding career. You need to keep trying until you find somebody that will talk to/work with you.... on YOUR level, and it's REALLY worth the trouble to find him!!!

Really want to understand what's going on? Read REX's shocks 101 sticky at the top of the Apex section:

http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php? ... sc&start=0

Particularly regarding the first stage in the compression stack (the first few shims/washers closest to the piston on the compression side. You'll usually see one or two large OD washers closest to the piston, then a smaller one. These form the first stage). While reading to get a grip on what you have going on, don't pay any attention to what position the shock he's talking about is in on the sled. When it comes to valving theory, a shock is a shock, where it's at on the sled isn't important. On the third page, he mentions what I'm trying to tell you about specifically, speaking about the first stage in a multi stage (or progressive) valve stack. This is where what you are calling "feedback" is controlled.....or not..... on ANY shock!!

"If little stutter bumps are making the sled chatter, there is too much low speed damping in compression.

Very likely your shock has single stage valving - unless it has been specifically updated with a multi-stage stack.

It shouldn't be difficult to revalve the shock to really soften off the low speed damping, while keeping the high speed damping where it is now."

REX (not his real name) is brilliant at getting shock theory across on a level I could understand. Those notes led me to a level of understanding that has footballed to the point where I learned to do my own shocks and valving since. I owe him big time for that..... it something I should have done 30 years ago.

Best of luck! If I can be of any help just holler. -Al

This is the fourth shock company I have used. This guy is by far the best I have worked with. He is willing to make things right which is great but he also believes things are setup correctly. With my lack of extensive knowledge in shocks it is certainly hard to dispute that.

Your post really helps though and gives me the motivation to push him to try something else for me to make things work. I have skimmed through that shock post once but will read it more to get a better understanding.

My shocks do have the multistage valving. So as it stands right now, the front end handles the large bumps perfect but the washboard bumps cause too much feedback. So I would simply need him to reduce the low speed compression damping, correct?

Little confused as Sno-Xr said his high speed valving was too stiff.