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Traction set-up questions

jtmetal said:
So while I'm down on my knees begging this whole thing to go away, a thought occurred to me.
Running 163s on a well-maintained super tight track. Other than the factory Yamaha tunnel protectors is there something else I must do?
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I use 1.86’s on my XTX with no issues. Just a very tight track. Yamaha protectors only.
 

Correct me if I am wrong but don’t studs size, shapes, shoulders vary from different manufacturers along with track thickness depending what your running ??? My point is its the stud height past the lug that matters when it comes to tunnel protection and or cooler protection… As far as longer studs rolling over that depends highly on penetration and surface density… When a stud plants itself in say soft ice it may flex more than harder more dense ice but that flex is a long way from rolling over in most all cases. The scatch lines you find when spinning off the line is most likely lack of penetration caused from type of stud used like a trail stud and or more importantly too many studs causing float … That flex also is dependent on plate used… Angle plate will reduce flex, propel you forward and penetrate hard but use in trail reduces braking power… So in order to get your best set up to go fast you need a balance of penetration that stops track from spinning but decreases amount of float, rotation weight, and reduces the power used to achieve this …. As conditions change so should studding as it takes energy to plant a stud and pull a stud from ice…. Only run as many as needed and no more is the right set up…
 
Simplespeed said:
Correct me if I am wrong but don’t studs size, shapes, shoulders vary from different manufacturers along with track thickness depending what your running ??? My point is its the stud height past the lug that matters when it comes to tunnel protection and or cooler protection… As far as longer studs rolling over that depends highly on penetration and surface density… When a stud plants itself in say soft ice it may flex more than harder more dense ice but that flex is a long way from rolling over in most all cases. The scatch lines you find when spinning off the line is most likely lack of penetration caused from type of stud used like a trail stud and or more importantly too many studs causing float … That flex also is dependent on plate used… Angle plate will reduce flex, propel you forward and penetrate hard but use in trail reduces braking power… So in order to get your best set up to go fast you need a balance of penetration that stops track from spinning but decreases amount of float, rotation weight, and reduces the power used to achieve this …. As conditions change so should studding as it takes energy to plant a stud and pull a stud from ice…. Only run as many as needed and no more is the right set up…
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Well....all kinds of answers based on various conditions and goals. I've been running the shorter 1.5" for trail use. It really is the best size overall. Imho.
Once you start doing or studding for a specific need, the 1.5" comes up a little short.
My initial thoughts are, the longer the lever, The easier it is the roll it over. So, I found out the easy way (thanks Trailleader) how a different backer has the ability to keep the stud more rigid and planted.
Hard braking & a loose track really cause more damage then the longer studs themselves.
 
Simplespeed said:
Correct me if I am wrong but don’t studs size, shapes, shoulders vary from different manufacturers along with track thickness depending what your running ??? My point is its the stud height past the lug that matters when it comes to tunnel protection and or cooler protection… As far as longer studs rolling over that depends highly on penetration and surface density… When a stud plants itself in say soft ice it may flex more than harder more dense ice but that flex is a long way from rolling over in most all cases. The scatch lines you find when spinning off the line is most likely lack of penetration caused from type of stud used like a trail stud and or more importantly too many studs causing float … That flex also is dependent on plate used… Angle plate will reduce flex, propel you forward and penetrate hard but use in trail reduces braking power… So in order to get your best set up to go fast you need a balance of penetration that stops track from spinning but decreases amount of float, rotation weight, and reduces the power used to achieve this …. As conditions change so should studding as it takes energy to plant a stud and pull a stud from ice…. Only run as many as needed and no more is the right set up…
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Its rare that ice will simply allow penetration, typically it fractures. The 'bed of nails' problem you point out (reducing weight-per-point) may be offset by the additional friction that all of those points provide in a heavily studded track. I would love to see some high speed video of what is actually happening when studs are used under varying conditions.
 
without proper penetration to move your force forward you lose leverage. When you lose leverage you start to spin, adding more studs will help, but its not the best answer in most cases. Deeper penetration leading to increase leverage I have found to be the better option and agree with Trailleader… Bed of nails description when you really think about it kinda tells us all about support and lack of penetration……
 
Let's break it down shall we? Let's say there's 80 or so studs on the footprint which is probably on the high side. They would each have the weight of the rear of the sled plus rider. Just generalizing that would be close to 400 lbs so about 5 lbs per stud with zero transfer. Launch that sled and I bet that is at least a 50% gain in weight per stud. Try to drag a single stud on ice with 7-8 lbs on it then multiply that resistance by 80. Sound about right? 7-8 lbs of resistance on one stud seems like it would tend to flex the track. Less studs are going to receive more pressure causing even more flexing.
 
I understand the bed of nails theory, but I'm wondering at what point that would actually take effect. That said I could absolutely see with less penetration it would occur more easily. On a Rip II 1.25" I could see the recommended Woody's stud 1.325 would take very little track flex for that particular stud to "lose it's grip”. Now this is where I think the studs that are 1.575 and up above shine as they grab allot more and still have room for track flex.
 
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That is why it would be very interesting to see the studs interact with the ice on high speed video. Stud flex (really track flex) is going to be somewhat limited by track tension and whatever flexibility there is in the track. Angled studs make sense to me as they naturally counter this effect. The more studs you have, the more you are counting on total friction, not penetration where friction is defined as less penetration but more points of contact with the surface.

Purely entertainment..

 
The limiting factor in penetration is the track lug so long studs naturally will want to penetrate deeper providing the surface allows it … stud flex is there but limited in movement based on stud shoulder, ( limits movement) plate design , Nut design, and rubber track construction . Yes it would great to see using High Speed Cameras .
 
After one season on the trail with 144 studs that were above my lugs 3/8" all studs were bent.
Replaced all studs and added also. Total 196 with 3/8" above lug.
Two seasons on that setup and working well.
Just a trail rider with 300hp and 1.5 track 1.86 studs.
 
Hooks very good. She's starting to show some potential. Haha
Screenshot_20231228-090339~2.png
 
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Nothing like last year. Almost dead hooked, motor bogged down. Lol.
 
1nc 2000 said:
After one season on the trail with 144 studs that were above my lugs 3/8" all studs were bent.
Replaced all studs and added also. Total 196 with 3/8" above lug.
Two seasons on that setup and working well.
Just a trail rider with 300hp and 1.5 track 1.86 studs.
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Who was the manufacturer and size and name of the stud that you bent all 144 of them that first season… what stud and manufacturer did you switch too that are working well. ???
 
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