Turbo Viper vs Apex XTX

[Snowaddict]

Looking for an honest comparison between these two sleds, and even vs an XF 9000 Limited cat. Even more specifically 2015 models. I have ridden a '15 viper & loved the positioning & ride, but was very disappointed in the top end. I was hoping they would have come out with the Apex in the ProCross chassis and would've already spring checked one. Obviously, that didn't happen. I'm a top end guy trying to get the great ride with top end. Anyone have experience with these sleds? Can a turbo viper keep up or pass the Apex or Cat turbo (in their stock versions of course. ) Pros/cons? Thanks in advance.

 

[cannondale27]

If you are running Winnebago or the Rivers by you. I would say right around 120mph is what you need for the long runs to be sure to take care of all the stock 9000's later ones had lower gear so not as fast early ones had tall gears and were faster than that on ice. From what I have seen of Turbo Vipers I would be calling and tell them what speed you expect. Probably will be re gearing. PCV is a must vs gems. I like a company that uses bigger injectors and map if needed. Ask about clutching. Others with Turbos will hopefully give you some more advice.

 

[Studroes144]

If you're all top end then the viper needs to be geared up, stock gearing in all the models is low. Honestly I wouldn't even look at an apex, after owning my viper for 2 season and getting some good miles, I cringe at the thought of riding an apex over some of the bumpy trails we encounter. I think the biggest thing is price, if you're looking for big top end, I'd stay away from the trail turbo, start out with a kit that comes standard with an innercooler and a fueling setup that makes it safe for you to run 6+ pounds of boost, now going that route I highly recommend installing a thicker head gasket and head studs, your engine will thank you later. So let's say a new viper costs $12,000, turbo kit $4-$4500 plus installation, gauges (a must) $3-$400, gearing $150-$200, clutching $400. So at the bare minimum you're looking at $17,000 for a turbo viper that will run 115+ mph and that's assuming that you do all the labor, if you're paying someone else to do it I'd say figure $1000, and then there's the head gasket and head studs if you go that route to run a little more boost..so you're looking at roughly $18,000-$19,000. People don't like when this comes up, but when you're talking boost, there's really no better way to go than the 1100 turbo cat. I believe a new 2016 with the team clutches can be spring ordered for around $13,000 for one of the top models, $300 for a flash, $300 for an exhaust and you're looking at 250+ hp and 120 mph speeds all day, you don't even need to clutch it, just the flash and run it. The new team clutches should help tremendously with the whole belt thing, but really really even if u blow a few belts a season, aftermarket belts for the cat are like $100-$120. With a cat turbo setup with a flash and exhaust I'll tell u without a doubt it's going to walk away from a low boost (6-8 pound) turbo viper, the viper will hang in there for a ways, but there really isn't much limit to the cat turbo, if you got a good enough stretch and are brave enough to hold it you'll see 115-120 mph whenever you want. I've got 1000 miles on my turbo viper, I love it, it's way way faster than a stocker and it's also a decent amount faster than an apex, just don't plan on setting any speed records with it unless youre willing to dump another $10k into engine mods and big boost.

 

[Snowaddict]

If you're all top end then the viper needs to be geared up, stock gearing in all the models is low. Honestly I wouldn't even look at an apex, after owning my viper for 2 season and getting some good miles, I cringe at the thought of riding an apex over some of the bumpy trails we encounter. I think the biggest thing is price, if you're looking for big top end, I'd stay away from the trail turbo, start out with a kit that comes standard with an innercooler and a fueling setup that makes it safe for you to run 6+ pounds of boost, now going that route I highly recommend installing a thicker head gasket and head studs, your engine will thank you later. So let's say a new viper costs $12,000, turbo kit $4-$4500 plus installation, gauges (a must) $3-$400, gearing $150-$200, clutching $400. So at the bare minimum you're looking at $17,000 for a turbo viper that will run 115+ mph and that's assuming that you do all the labor, if you're paying someone else to do it I'd say figure $1000, and then there's the head gasket and head studs if you go that route to run a little more boost..so you're looking at roughly $18,000-$19,000. People don't like when this comes up, but when you're talking boost, there's really no better way to go than the 1100 turbo cat. I believe a new 2016 with the team clutches can be spring ordered for around $13,000 for one of the top models, $300 for a flash, $300 for an exhaust and you're looking at 250+ hp and 120 mph speeds all day, you don't even need to clutch it, just the flash and run it. The new team clutches should help tremendously with the whole belt thing, but really really even if u blow a few belts a season, aftermarket belts for the cat are like $100-$120. With a cat turbo setup with a flash and exhaust I'll tell u without a doubt it's going to walk away from a low boost (6-8 pound) turbo viper, the viper will hang in there for a ways, but there really isn't much limit to the cat turbo, if you got a good enough stretch and are brave enough to hold it you'll see 115-120 mph whenever you want. I've got 1000 miles on my turbo viper, I love it, it's way way faster than a stocker and it's also a decent amount faster than an apex, just don't plan on setting any speed records with it unless youre willing to dump another $10k into engine mods and big boost.

Thanks guys. Sounds like the trail turbo is not the most promoted. I'm mostly a trail rider, but love to crack it across a lake, field, or road through the woods. Not looking to set a record, but just be able to pass other stock muscle sleds. I love my 06 Apex, but I want a better ride that is comfortable and fits me. I was considering buying a leftover of whatever sled, which would save $. And didn't know if I could get the MPI at the cheaper price with the sled, but if so, could save even more (vs brand new sled and some other brand turbo. ) I should also share that I'm not that mechanically inclined & would want something that doesn't need a lot of maintenance or a rocket scientist to use it. Do they make a turbo for dummies by chance? Lol

 

[Studroes144]

Turbo for dummies=cat turbo lol they literally are as easy as a $300 flash and you get awesome power, no need to change clutching, and they have all the failsafes built into the engine and ecu. If u get a bad shot of gas the engine will detect it and pull timing so you don't risk an engine burn down, the yammi has nothing like that. If you look at the results of this years amsnow Shootout the trail turbo viper was the fastest of all the stock class sleds, yes I know it's not a stock sled, but when compared to all the stock 800's and stock cat turbo the viper was the fastest and quickest time as well, it was a full second quicker than all the 800's in the dealer prep runs, so yes the low boost viper is a strong runner, but it's not "dummy proof". It still needs clutching and some fine tuning on the fuel end of things, but it sure is fun once it's all dialed in!

 

[Snowaddict]

Turbo for dummies=cat turbo lol they literally are as easy as a $300 flash and you get awesome power, no need to change clutching, and they have all the failsafes built into the engine and ecu. If u get a bad shot of gas the engine will detect it and pull timing so you don't risk an engine burn down, the yammi has nothing like that. If you look at the results of this years amsnow Shootout the trail turbo viper was the fastest of all the stock class sleds, yes I know it's not a stock sled, but when compared to all the stock 800's and stock cat turbo the viper was the fastest and quickest time as well, it was a full second quicker than all the 800's in the dealer prep runs, so yes the low boost viper is a strong runner, but it's not "dummy proof". It still needs clutching and some fine tuning on the fuel end of things, but it sure is fun once it's all dialed in!

Funny thing is, Tuesday night I was convinced I should get a cat after talking with a dealer that sells Cat & yamaha. Has a couple '15 leftovers. I inquired about belts, etc issues and they readily admitted those were in the '12-'13s. Said newer ones were better & belts lasting 1200 miles. Then I posted on TY in the Apex forum & completely changed my mind hearing doom & gloom stories & Apex XTX is just as fast and sometimes faster than the cat. That's when I started thinking turbo viper to stick with yamaha reliability. I'm still confused!

 

[jpnytro240]

I have had many yami's and cats and have had both the apex and turbo cats and can tell you right now dollar for dollar the cat turbo will out run the yami! They are both good sleds but if your going to leave it stock and want to just gas and go then yami all the way...turbo any sled from any brand brings other problems to the table! My 13 cat I sold because the belt problems and now with Evo brackets and adjustable motor mounts belt problems are a thing of the past for the cat.

 

[cannondale27]

Dont want to confuse you even more but dont forget about the fun factor. Viper especially with a Turbo is WAAAY more fun than a Cat or Apex especially when you are not going across the lake or down the river. Something you need to really think about since I bet 90% of your riding is on trails. Heck I dont even have Turbo and its not like the Apex and Cat guys are sitting there waiting for me. They always lift at some point in those long runs. Never out of sight.

 

[Ohiohntr]

My buddy has an Apex XTX and I have a Viper LTX......during the last trip we kept switching because his hands were getting cold and the Viper warmers are awesome. Anyhow, I could not wait to get back on my Viper every time we switched as I do not care for the seating position and big hood design of the Apex while riding. In the whooped out trails is where the Viper shines over the Apex....I cannot comfortably stand up and ride on the Apex where it is natural to stand on the Viper.

Having said that....the power of the Apex engine sure is fun on the straightaways and the power steering rocks in the tight twisty trails.

 

[Studroes144]

Funny thing is, Tuesday night I was convinced I should get a cat after talking with a dealer that sells Cat & yamaha. Has a couple '15 leftovers. I inquired about belts, etc issues and they readily admitted those were in the '12-'13s. Said newer ones were better & belts lasting 1200 miles. Then I posted on TY in the Apex forum & completely changed my mind hearing doom & gloom stories & Apex XTX is just as fast and sometimes faster than the cat. That's when I started thinking turbo viper to stick with yamaha reliability. I'm still confused!

Just keep in mind where you're posting, go over to dootalk and ask them to give an honest opinion on a cat turbo, an apex and a viper turbo and I'll guarantee that 90% of the people will tell you to buy an 800 etec or doo 1200, that's just how it goes with the online forums..there's good info, but there's awesome mainly one sided feedback. Cannondale hit the nail on the head, the cat turbo has long legs and will out run any sled out there, the apex has long legs, but it's also heavy and not as good of handling. The viper doesn't really have that much for top end in stock form, switching gearing will make it faster if you have the power to turn it, but the thing that I love most about my viper, even with the turbo, the throttle response is instant and it has a lot of snap, the cat turbo does not have that, turbo viper will hit 100 on basically any trail, if u wanna trail ride faster than that you're nuts lol.

 

[Yamadog]

Thanks guys. Sounds like the trail turbo is not the most promoted. I'm mostly a trail rider, but love to crack it across a lake, field, or road through the woods. Not looking to set a record, but just be able to pass other stock muscle sleds. I love my 06 Apex, but I want a better ride that is comfortable and fits me. I was considering buying a leftover of whatever sled, which would save $. And didn't know if I could get the MPI at the cheaper price with the sled, but if so, could save even more (vs brand new sled and some other brand turbo. ) I should also share that I'm not that mechanically inclined & would want something that doesn't need a lot of maintenance or a rocket scientist to use it. Do they make a turbo for dummies by chance? Lol

Well after 2 seasons on mine ande a lot of learning and dollars spent I finally have the sled of a lifetime. There is no 320 hp D&D Cat xf1100 that will out run it in 660 ft drag and once I regear form stock i doubt 1000' either. There is no more nimble trail sled that will take me in the tight twisties. I love it soo much I dumped my brand new Polaris Axys 800 Pro S SB with only 550 miles on it and bought a late season 2015 XTX SE to add to the stable. Yes you can buy an XF1100 for about $13k and for about another $1.5k or so have a fast Massey Ferguson sounding sled but I will tell you the belt issues are not fixed on the stock sled not the 320 hp versions I ran 3 or more of them (2015) this season and had to wait for a rematch on all of them as they blew a belt on the first run. Mine is finally figured out thanks to Allen Ulmer and am getting over 1000 miles on belts now.

 

[Studroes144]

Well after 2 seasons on mine ande a lot of learning and dollars spent I finally have the sled of a lifetime. There is no 320 hp D&D Cat xf1100 that will out run it in 660 ft drag and once I regear form stock i doubt 1000' either. There is no more nimble trail sled that will take me in the tight twisties. I love it soo much I dumped my brand new Polaris Axys 800 Pro S SB with only 550 miles on it and bought a late season 2015 XTX SE to add to the stable. Yes you can buy an XF1100 for about $13k and for about another $1.5k or so have a fast Massey Ferguson sounding sled but I will tell you the belt issues are not fixed on the stock sled not the 320 hp versions I ran 3 or more of them (2015) this season and had to wait for a rematch on all of them as they blew a belt on the first run. Mine is finally figured out thanks to Allen Ulmer and am getting over 1000 miles on belts now.

I'm sure a 250hp viper is sweet, 180hp is a blast, but to build a 250 hp viper and have it be trail safe I'd put the price tag right around 20-$22,000, and then it still has no failsafes if u get a bad shot of gas. U can get 250 hp out of a cat turbo with a $300 flash, and it's safe

 

[Yamadog]

I'm sure a 250hp viper is sweet, 180hp is a blast, but to build a 250 hp viper and have it be trail safe I'd put the price tag right around 20-$22,000, and then it still has no failsafes if u get a bad shot of gas. U can get 250 hp out of a cat turbo with a $300 flash, and it's safe

That is why I have it switched for lower boost and carry 2 gallons of 110 octane with me. I can blend 87 high enough to run it at 9#'s of boost and just not use WOT till I get back to gas I am sure of. Even the guys running the D&D setups were carrying 110 octane with them.

 

[Studroes144]

That's kinda what I'm getting at, the turbo vipers rely 100% on getting good gas, if by chance u get a bad shot with a viper you're basically at the mercy of if the engine will hold or not. If guys are running cat turbos at over 300hp they're past the limits of the stock engine which in my mind negates everything because by the sounds of it I doubt the OP has any interest in building an all out race engine for trail riding. A stock cat turbo will be boring, but still faster than any other stock sled out there, the power on tap is so easy it'd be a shame for anyone not to atleast do a cheap ecu flash, a stock viper is not a lake racer but a turbo can make it one fun sled and post some real good top speeds as well, u just gotta weigh the options and the $$ and see what's best for you. Cats failsafes are the biggest selling point in my opinion, you would have to be a total fool to burn down one of those 1100 engines, I just seen 2 examples in the last post of low boost vipers with engines going bad which would've never happened had they had the ability to pull timing like what the cats do.

 

[Snowaddict]

The gas thing does scare me. When you're out riding by some of the small towns, you never know what octane they're going to have. As for the cat, sounds like the engine is good, but blowing an 100 some dollar belt is going to get expensive and old if it happens frequently. Or other broken parts. If getting the cat, I would leave it mostly stock because from what the dealer said if it goes over a certain hp, you lose the warranty. He also said there is some type of tracking thing embedded which the factory can tell what you've done to it. I want fast (doesn't have to be top gun lake racer), comfortable, and reliable. And fun too! My '06 Apex RTX is fast, but lacks the maneuverability and comfort. The fun factor is not quite where I would like it to be either. 95% is on trail riding in the North woods. You cross a field & lake every time out, though. I want to pass, not get passed! The group I ride with I'm able do the passing now, but I have to work more through the woods & transitioning to a standing position is not comfortable. I'm jealous that they don't seem to move at all on their sleds while I'm all over my seat & leaning, etc.