Using SeaFoam in season / quantity

[rxengineer]

What ever you choose to use for what ever purpose, it is my understanding there is nothing that can prevent or slow hase Separation" Nothing. If there was a solution to this problem, the oil companies would be using it as phase separation is a big problem for them too. Let's hear it from the experts and your thoughts on this topic too.

did u watch the video???? i created phase separation, reversed phase separation, and prevented it from happening again in the fuel i treated...

not trying to be a jerk, but do you think the oil companies care about what we put in our gas tanks?? if they did they wouldnt have added ethanol in the first place..oil companies care about $$$$$$ and that is the bottom line.. look at their profits, they are making mad $$$$$$...

There is precisely one thing that is known to be able to consistently reverse phase separation; ethyl alcohol "ethanol". Going under the assumption that your magic snake oil product is almost 100% ethyl alcohol, the results you recorded are perfectly consistent with what is expected.

I have to admit that you made a very nice video, very convincing, if you happen to be someone who doesn't understand what these products actually do.


Judging by the shape of the bottle, one of those products was clearly seafoam, which is predominantly NAPTHA OIL. It has a very small quantity of isopropyl alcohol, so in sufficient quantities, it may also be able to reverse phase separation, but since the quantity is so low, it isn't able to deal with the abundance of water that you poured into the containers.

Now quite frankly, I wouldn't want a product like that, that introduces large quantities of alcohol to an already high percentage of alcohol. If you do happen to get phase separation in your fuel, the best approach is to first PUMP OUT the separated fluid from the bottom of the tank, and THEN replace the missing alcohol to restore the fuel to a more-or-less original mix.


Now your big complaint about the current fuels is the alcohol, somehow mysteriously leading to phase separation, which leaves a layer of unburnable waste at the bottom of the tank. Now there are a few things to think about here;

1) That unburnable waste at the bottom of the tank, at least, does not freeze, which means that you CAN pump it through your fuel system (although I recommend removing the fuel line after the fuel pump and pumping it out into a container for disposal). It can also be pumped OUT of the fuel tank.
2) Without adding any alcohol at all to the fuel, i.e., 100% pure gasoline, when the water gets into the tank, NONE of it can be dissolved into the gasoline. ALL of it drops immediately to the bottom of the tank... and freezes into ICE.
3) The water in the fuel doesn't mysteriously form BECAUSE of the alcohol. It would enter the fuel system through the vents, by snowing, etc., regardless.

When there is a 10% mix with alcohol, you have one very significant advantage; you will never have water freezing into your fuel lines, carbs, fuel injectors, fuel pumps, etc. When you're dealing with the electric fuel pumps like on the newer sleds, a bit of ice inside the fuel pump can actually DESTROY the impeller. If you have alcohol, then even if you get enough water in the system to cause phase separation, at least it remains LIQUID.


Now quite frankly, phase separation is an extremely minor problem. It mainly affects things stored in extremely high humidity. That means, for the most part, boats. It is highly unlikely for snowmobiles or lawn and garden equipment, unless you maybe store them outside in the rain or otherwise neglect them severely. In any case, I've never actually observed it. I have observed it in a boat. In fact, I have a story for you about it happening in a boat. Before I got married, I did all my boat launching by myself, which means pulling the boat around to the launch with my truck, driving the boat to my dock, driving back to the launch with my aluminum 6HP, leaving it at the launch while driving the truck back, driving the boat back to the launch, and pulling the 6HP back to my dock. Well, once I made it just half way to the boat launch with the 6HP before it sucked some phase separated goo out of the bottom of the tank and stopped. How do you deal with that in the middle of the lake? You pull the fuel line off the tank and motor, angle the tank so you can pump out from the low corner, pump the separated goo out of the tank into the bailing bucket, reinstall the fuel line, take the flat screwdriver strapped to the side of the motor (spare tools kit) and release the float bowl drain screw, squeeze the bulb to release the water from the carb, tighten back up, restart, and keep on going.

Phase separation really isn't a big deal.



Now of course, phase separation isn't the only problem that alcohol causes in fuel. In fact, there are much worse problems. Alcohol is a pretty good solvent for fuel varnish, and it is highly volatile. As a result, it has a tendency to exacerbate the problem of varnish forming in the carburetors for non-FI engines. Of course, that means formation of that varnish that plugs jets and sticks float valves. Stuck float valves are a major problem, especially when they're stuck open. Means that it will be pouring way too much fuel into the engine, and you will also get fuel pouring out the overflow. Major bad news. On a 2-stroke engine, a partially plugged jet can cause you to burn the engine.

Now an interesting thing that I've noticed with my 2-strokes, is that PREMIX doesn't seem to varnish!!! I have two snowmobiles; an RX1 and an older 2-stroke. The 2-stroke is a Yamaha autolube model, but the oil pump has long since failed and been discarded, I've been premixing 50:1 for about 15 years. I've only had to repair the carbs on it once, when the float valves wore out. They weren't plugged or dirty, they were old enough that they simply weren't sealing properly any more, and slowly leaking fuel into the engine if the tank was filled higher than the carbs. This year for giggles, when I went through my RX1's carbs and found the typical gum/varnish and stuck float valves, I went through my 2-stroke carbs as well... absolutely immaculate. This says to me that the 2-stroke oil must have done something to preserve the fuel.



So, the video did a very good job proving that the magic snake oil is mostly alcohol, but (1) it did not compare against other additives with the same purpose, such as plain old generic brand "gas line antifreeze", and (2) it did not measure the qualities actually advertised by the two products it was compared to. It was an apples-to-orangutans comparison. I use orangutans because monkeys are a more proper contrast.



Now there is another statement that you made that I don't agree with. You claim that you "prevented it from happening again". I don't agree with this. You didn't test this theory at all. To test this theory, you need to add more water to the mix. When you first added water, you added enough to go just a little bit over the threshold to cause phase separation, so when you added the snake oil aka "more alcohol", what you did is you raised the threshold, which means that it simply takes more water to cause phase separation. The more highly concentrated the alcohol is, the greater the volume of water it can dissolve into gas before phase separation occurs.



Now about seafoam;
The formulation is super secret, but from certain testing, appears to be approximately;
1. Pail oil 40-60% (lubricant, can substitute with ATF or SAE30 for home brew)
2. Naptha 25-35% (aka "camp fuel" -- solvent, can substitute with paint thinner, another good one is acetone, but for "cleaning" rather than storage since it is highly volatile)
3. IPA 10-20% (isopropyl alcohol -- too low of a concentration to overcome the video demonstration quantities of water, but about 5 to 10 times as much seafoam may have had the same effect, although I don't know the effects of having two types of alcohol... are the effects additive?)

 

[RIGIDONE]

What ever you choose to use for what ever purpose, it is my understanding there is nothing that can prevent or slow hase Separation" Nothing. If there was a solution to this problem, the oil companies would be using it as phase separation is a big problem for them too. Let's hear it from the experts and your thoughts on this topic too.

did u watch the video???? i created phase separation, reversed phase separation, and prevented it from happening again in the fuel i treated...

not trying to be a jerk, but do you think the oil companies care about what we put in our gas tanks?? if they did they wouldnt have added ethanol in the first place..oil companies care about $$$$$$ and that is the bottom line.. look at their profits, they are making mad $$$$$$...

There is precisely one thing that is known to be able to consistently reverse phase separation; ethyl alcohol "ethanol". Going under the assumption that your magic snake oil product is almost 100% ethyl alcohol, the results you recorded are perfectly consistent with what is expected.

I have to admit that you made a very nice video, very convincing, if you happen to be someone who doesn't understand what these products actually do.


Judging by the shape of the bottle, one of those products was clearly seafoam, which is predominantly NAPTHA OIL. It has a very small quantity of isopropyl alcohol, so in sufficient quantities, it may also be able to reverse phase separation, but since the quantity is so low, it isn't able to deal with the abundance of water that you poured into the containers.

Now quite frankly, I wouldn't want a product like that, that introduces large quantities of alcohol to an already high percentage of alcohol. If you do happen to get phase separation in your fuel, the best approach is to first PUMP OUT the separated fluid from the bottom of the tank, and THEN replace the missing alcohol to restore the fuel to a more-or-less original mix.


Now your big complaint about the current fuels is the alcohol, somehow mysteriously leading to phase separation, which leaves a layer of unburnable waste at the bottom of the tank. Now there are a few things to think about here;

1) That unburnable waste at the bottom of the tank, at least, does not freeze, which means that you CAN pump it through your fuel system (although I recommend removing the fuel line after the fuel pump and pumping it out into a container for disposal). It can also be pumped OUT of the fuel tank.
2) Without adding any alcohol at all to the fuel, i.e., 100% pure gasoline, when the water gets into the tank, NONE of it can be dissolved into the gasoline. ALL of it drops immediately to the bottom of the tank... and freezes into ICE.
3) The water in the fuel doesn't mysteriously form BECAUSE of the alcohol. It would enter the fuel system through the vents, by snowing, etc., regardless.

When there is a 10% mix with alcohol, you have one very significant advantage; you will never have water freezing into your fuel lines, carbs, fuel injectors, fuel pumps, etc. When you're dealing with the electric fuel pumps like on the newer sleds, a bit of ice inside the fuel pump can actually DESTROY the impeller. If you have alcohol, then even if you get enough water in the system to cause phase separation, at least it remains LIQUID.


Now quite frankly, phase separation is an extremely minor problem. It mainly affects things stored in extremely high humidity. That means, for the most part, boats. It is highly unlikely for snowmobiles or lawn and garden equipment, unless you maybe store them outside in the rain or otherwise neglect them severely. In any case, I've never actually observed it. I have observed it in a boat. In fact, I have a story for you about it happening in a boat. Before I got married, I did all my boat launching by myself, which means pulling the boat around to the launch with my truck, driving the boat to my dock, driving back to the launch with my aluminum 6HP, leaving it at the launch while driving the truck back, driving the boat back to the launch, and pulling the 6HP back to my dock. Well, once I made it just half way to the boat launch with the 6HP before it sucked some phase separated goo out of the bottom of the tank and stopped. How do you deal with that in the middle of the lake? You pull the fuel line off the tank and motor, angle the tank so you can pump out from the low corner, pump the separated goo out of the tank into the bailing bucket, reinstall the fuel line, take the flat screwdriver strapped to the side of the motor (spare tools kit) and release the float bowl drain screw, squeeze the bulb to release the water from the carb, tighten back up, restart, and keep on going.

Phase separation really isn't a big deal.



Now of course, phase separation isn't the only problem that alcohol causes in fuel. In fact, there are much worse problems. Alcohol is a pretty good solvent for fuel varnish, and it is highly volatile. As a result, it has a tendency to exacerbate the problem of varnish forming in the carburetors for non-FI engines. Of course, that means formation of that varnish that plugs jets and sticks float valves. Stuck float valves are a major problem, especially when they're stuck open. Means that it will be pouring way too much fuel into the engine, and you will also get fuel pouring out the overflow. Major bad news. On a 2-stroke engine, a partially plugged jet can cause you to burn the engine.

Now an interesting thing that I've noticed with my 2-strokes, is that PREMIX doesn't seem to varnish!!! I have two snowmobiles; an RX1 and an older 2-stroke. The 2-stroke is a Yamaha autolube model, but the oil pump has long since failed and been discarded, I've been premixing 50:1 for about 15 years. I've only had to repair the carbs on it once, when the float valves wore out. They weren't plugged or dirty, they were old enough that they simply weren't sealing properly any more, and slowly leaking fuel into the engine if the tank was filled higher than the carbs. This year for giggles, when I went through my RX1's carbs and found the typical gum/varnish and stuck float valves, I went through my 2-stroke carbs as well... absolutely immaculate. This says to me that the 2-stroke oil must have done something to preserve the fuel.



So, the video did a very good job proving that the magic snake oil is mostly alcohol, but (1) it did not compare against other additives with the same purpose, such as plain old generic brand "gas line antifreeze", and (2) it did not measure the qualities actually advertised by the two products it was compared to. It was an apples-to-orangutans comparison. I use orangutans because monkeys are a more proper contrast.



Now there is another statement that you made that I don't agree with. You claim that you "prevented it from happening again". I don't agree with this. You didn't test this theory at all. To test this theory, you need to add more water to the mix. When you first added water, you added enough to go just a little bit over the threshold to cause phase separation, so when you added the snake oil aka "more alcohol", what you did is you raised the threshold, which means that it simply takes more water to cause phase separation. The more highly concentrated the alcohol is, the greater the volume of water it can dissolve into gas before phase separation occurs.



Now about seafoam;
The formulation is super secret, but from certain testing, appears to be approximately;
1. Pail oil 40-60% (lubricant, can substitute with ATF or SAE30 for home brew)
2. Naptha 25-35% (aka "camp fuel" -- solvent, can substitute with paint thinner, another good one is acetone, but for "cleaning" rather than storage since it is highly volatile)
3. IPA 10-20% (isopropyl alcohol -- too low of a concentration to overcome the video demonstration quantities of water, but about 5 to 10 times as much seafoam may have had the same effect, although I don't know the effects of having two types of alcohol... are the effects additive?)

sorry, im a bit confused,.. but you say the only thing that reverses or prevents phase separation is ethanol??? is that correct??? my understanding is that when a small amount of water is introduced to a fuel container the ethanol molecules are attracted to the water molecules and accumulate at the bottom of the tank.. correct or am i wrong???as i very well might be..

second you claim phase separation isnt a big deal,.. you give a little story about your boat.. im sorry but that seems like a big hassle to remove my fuel tank trail side drain the bad stuff out, carry it around with me to dispose of it properly, and put my fuel tank back on.. it might just be me but that seems like a bit of a chore..

third, you say that you dont see phase separation occurring in your 2cycle mix fuel.. this product was first introduced to the small engine market.. if phase separation occurs in a 2cycle fuel tank, the first thing sucked up by the fuel pick up is the water/ethanol mix at the bottom of the tank.. no oil for lubrication in that.. repeated starting on that will cause cylinder scoring and then loss of compression. i also dont know one company that doesnt add a fuel stabilizer to their 2cycle mix.. Stihl, Husky, Opti, Briggs, Tecumseh, and Oregon mix lube all have a fuel stabilizer added to them.. so that might be why you see better results with 2 cycle mix.. now on snowmobile oil i do not know if they do or not add stabilizer.. i have only ever owned a 4stroke.

forth, now this one amazes me.. you say the only way to get phase separation in a snowmobile or lawn and garden equipment is by neglect.. leaving them outside in the humidity or rain.. as stated im a lawn jockey.. and im also no pansy.. i will mow in a complete down pour, i will string trim in a complete down pour.. i will have my equipment on an open trailer going 70mph down the highway in a complete drown pour just getting blasted by the elements.. i get home at 9pm at night and am out on the road at 6am the next day.. sorry not unloading all that equipment just to load it up 9 hours later as all of us lawn jockeys would probably agree.. That is not neglect.. thats call life in my line of work.. my machines need to run flawlessly every day.. right now they are pressure washed spotless and all the fuel tanks have MIB in them with fuel i bought in october so i will have no fuel related issues going into next season.. all my fuel lines will not crack and dry rot free.. My battery is also on a battery tender in the basement.. the battery is 6yrs old..


now to each their own.. this is just a product that i have had very very good luck with and thought i would share it.. i never said anything bad about any of the products you mentioned.. i actually use them also.. just not as a fuel treatment.. i used seafoam about 3 weeks ago, once a year i dump it in my crank case of my truck before an oil change to clean any sludge out as my trucks engine in prone to sludge build up.. its really good stuff.. my oil pan is always sludge free (i do inspect it with a scope) my truck has 155k on the odometer.. i also use seafoam trans tune before i do a transmission filter change.

use what ever you want, i really dont care.. but i have been using the synthetic B3C products for over 2 years and have been extremely happy with the results i have had..

 

[RIGIDONE]

and just to comment on your first sentence that is incorrect..

all of the B3C products are 100% synthetic and are one of the only fuel products that has ZERO alcohol in it. no alcohol in it what so ever.. none..zero, zilch.. just say'n