Snowman07
Expert
I love my 08 Nytro. It hasn't let me down at all, not even a blown belt or broken springs. Sure the handling had to be dialed in some and few adjustments to the skis, but handles fine to me.
Snowman07
Expert
Heres a unbias article for you
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TECH TESTS HOW-TO PRODUCTS
WELCOME to the NEW AMSNOW.com! Check out our latest additions - CLICK HERE
Comparison Test: Four play!
Ski-Doo takes on Yamaha in the 130-horse 4-stroke crossover market
Mark Boncher
8/18/2008
4-STROKE FEVER - We tested all the new 2009 crossover and high-performance 130-horse 4-strokes from Ski-Doo and Yamaha last spring on the same day. We ran them through big bumps, powder, tight trails and more! Kort Duce photos
CARVE THE TURKEY - The easy carving and deep snow side-hilling ability of the XTX is impressive and predictable. Let's just hope snow/ice doesn't still build up under the tunnel.
NYTRO UPGRADES - There now are big snow removal slashes in the running boards.
The mechanical reverse lever still annoys us.
Adjustable couplers on the rear skid plus shorter front A-arms help handling.
Flying high on the FX Nytro XTX.
TEC IDEAS - These hand-warmers on the Renegade are now the best in the biz.
We like the grab bar, a necessity on a crossover sled.
There's also plenty of room for a turbo under the hood, but the secondary is hard to remove, and it's not super-easy to change the clutching.
FIRST TRACKS - We were able to go nearly anywhere off-trail with this Renegade, and the rear end felt incredibly light for a big 4-stroke.
The Renegade is a fun sled to toss around and catch some air.
What we've seen in the last 3 years is a proliferation in the 4-stroke market.
While some Ski-Doo 2-stroke guys tell you demand for 4-strokes is dwindling and you won't see much growth there, Yamaha's 4-stroke guys say they've grown to be the No. 2 OEM simply on 4-stroke sales. In 2009, both are investing heavily in 4-strokes.
Yamaha and Ski-Doo are giving buyers more of what they want with long-track versions of their 130-hp 4-strokers. Enter the Nytro XTX and MXZ Renegade X 1200.
Yamaha goes long
It was expected that Yamaha would come with a long-track Nytro for '09, but few would have guessed the new Nytro XTX to be a full 144-in. long rendition.
As we've said many times, WE LOVE THIS ENGINE! The 1049cc, 3-cylinder, liquid 4-stroke was dynoed by Tech Editor Olav Aaen to have 138.6 hp at 8,500 rpm. So why not let it churn a 144-in. RipSaw track around a 6-degree tipped up rail?
This engine actually seems more at home with this application than the short-track version.
The Mikuni-carbed FI engine gets good gas mileage - 15.3 mpg in our Real World test - is reliable, runs on 87 octane, after its first break-in oil change it only needs to be changed every 2,500 miles, and it has an easy electric start.
In addition to the torquey engine, XTX also gets all new Nytro front-end updates AND a bump-straddling, torque-harnessing, 1.25-in. lugged, 15-in.-wide track. The fully coupled dual shock CK 144 rear suspension has a three-setting pre-load cam-type adjuster on the torsion springs so you can easily set ride height and stiffness to your liking. Also, coupling adjustments can be made via a turn of the collar on the control rods in back. You'll also get a remote reservoir adjustable clicker rear shock with 12 compression clicks.
Taking a cue from its mountain sled testers and snocrossers, Yamaha's XTX has big snow evacuation holes in the boards and a steeper running-board angle of 11 degrees vs. the former Nytro's 9 degrees. Yamaha also made significant changes to the front end of all its Nytro-based sleds. To make the sled more stable, the castor angle was increased from a more up and down 22 degrees to a relaxed 25.8 degrees. The trail at the ski bottom was increased here from 21.4mm to 42.5mm and a revised spindle and shorter A-arms were used to accommodate the castor angle change.
Camber also was increased and ski stance narrowed. You get GYTR dual-
clicker front shocks too, with 12 clicks of compression damping adjustment and 20 clicks of rebound damping adjustment. Talking with Yamaha engineers, they have experimented with slightly more "toe-out" on their '09 sleds. This was something we also worked on with our 2008 demo sled.
Initial hits
The engine, of course.
Tipped up rail. We liked it in the old Polaris Switchbacks too, but "market research" told Polaris that everyone wanted a 136-incher. We're glad Yamaha brought it back! Why sacrifice a shorter track when you can get all the on-trail benefits of a 121 and still have big bump-bridging capability and off-trail dominance? We'll see how this plays out, but I have a feeling this 144-inch Nytro XTX is going to steal sales from a lot of those 136-inchers.
Front end. We like the changes here and believe about 30-40% of the Nytro's darting and unpredictability in the corners has been dialed out. It corners flatter and there isn't as much nervousness in the bumps as last year's short-track.
Rear end. We also like being able to change coupling settings because last year there were NOT adjustable blocks on the Nytros. However, the XTX's couplers aren't as easy to change as some on other sleds.
Top speed. In initial speed runs, this thing has better top end than even some of its short-track brethren. On long open sweeping trails it will not give up anything to an 800 and seems to pull harder than any 700 from the last 3 years.
Running boards. Snow removal is much better with the big "slash" holes and the boards are easy to get a grip on.
Initial pits
Cold. This is inherent to the Nytro body style, the XTX is a cold ride. Even with the slightly larger windshield for this year, the Nytro isn't warm. There needs to be more heat in the handgrips too. Wattage needs to be increased to the bars ASAP if you want to ride XTX in temps less than 25 F.
Handlebar action. Nytro-based sleds are difficult, especially for smaller riders, to leverage in hard aggressive turns. Because the bars move in a more vertical action, riders actually end up pulling them into their crotch while the other end of the bar is high and away from one's body. Don't ask us how Steve Taylor does it for Team Yamaha on the snocross track.
Front-end dive. We noticed this last year on our Nytro, and it could partially be due to engine braking and suspension set-up, but after trying many adjustments, we think it might also simply be due to the sled's geometry. We noticed that every time we hit a big bump head on, the front end would basically dive into the bump unless we were heavily on the gas. While looking at our Nytro XTX photos, we noticed the front end kicked up a lot more snow than any other machine. If you are a snocross fan, we saw this on the race sled as well. Every time Steve Taylor hit a bump before take-off there was an explosion of snow around the front shocks.
No mountain grab bar. If you are going to have a 144-in. crossover sled that is a big 4-stroke, you should have a grab bar in the middle of the handlebars.
No storage. Saddlebags are your only option here.
2009 Yamaha XTX
Engine: 1049cc liquid triple 4-stroke
HP: 138.6 (AmSnow tested)
Exhaust: 2-valves, 3-1 rear exhaust
Ski Stance: 41.3 in.
Front Susp.: Next generation FX-style independent, double wishbone
Rear Susp.: Dual Shock CK 144-inch
Track: 15x144x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 7.4 gal.
Price: $10,549 US
Ski-Doo is all new
The yellow camp couldn't deny that there are buyers who simply want a 4-stroke, so Ski-Doo gave consumers a new high-performance, 130-hp 4-stroke, the 1200 4-TEC.
This 1170.7cc, dual-overhead cam, inline, 3-cylinder engine is available in models across Ski-Doo's line, but for this comparison we were interested in the 4-TEC powered MXZ Renegade X 1200.
The 137-in. long Renegade is built for crossover performance. The 1.25-in. lugged track is 16 inches wide so there's a big footprint for off-trail flotation.
Since this Renegade has the 4-stroke engine, it comes in the new REV/XR body, which has a wider hood and slightly different aesthetics than the REV/XP chassis. Several changes were made to the original XP chassis in order to house the larger 4-stroke mill, which brings the Renegade's dry weight to a Ski-Doo estimated 521 lbs.
One of the first things you'll notice on this sled is the low engagement speed of 2,800 rpm. It's sneaky fast on the draw, and if you just mash the throttle out of the gate, it won't even feel like you've started moving until you're suddenly cruising down the trail.The big 4-stroke engine winds out at a low 7,750 rpm too.
Initial hits
Shock calibration. The smoothness of the X-package prototype 1200 shock calibration was perfect. While this is an X-sled, it cycled through its suspension with plush initial stroke and also great bottoming resistance. Extra oil in the piggyback shocks kept them from fading as we got into the bigger bumps and pushed hard through the ripple bumps.
While we don't suggest trying this at home, we watched snocross rider Willie Elam do half a dozen whip-jumps off a natural ramp in Colorado, and the big 4-stroke took the landings well. Even Elam commented on the set-up. The Kayaba HPG clicker take-apart aluminum front shocks are easy to adjust and so is the racing clicker on the rear arm. An HPG take-apart aluminum shock also sits in the front arm.
Smoothness. Clutch engagement, throttle pull, exhaust tone and just about everything on this sled, from a performance standpoint was smooth. Cornering was impressive, but not quite up to the level of the 2-stroke XPs. We believe the small bit of tippiness we felt was due to a slightly taller vehicle height than the XP sleds (3.5 in. taller) and the heavier engine. The best "smoothness" feature of the 1200 was how easy the mechanical reverse was to shift. This is possibly the fastest forward to reverse and vice-versa system out there.
Top end. For only 130 horses, this sled hung right with the 700, 800 and larger straight 4-stroke sleds on the top end. It was not nearly as fast as some sleds out of the hole, but top-end speed was great.
Tank size. With a 10.6-gal. tank and at a Ski-Doo estimated 18.3 mpg, this sled's range should be more than 190 miles. We love not filling tanks every 60 miles, wasting time gassing up.
Initial pits
Brakes. The brakes felt mushy to everyone that rode the Renegade. It's very easy on this sled to build up speed because of the small amount of engine noise and with its long legs, a rider could conceivably get in trouble quickly without a super braking system. The brake set-up on the 1200 Renegade was mediocre.
Engine Braking. Much of the engine braking was dialed out from the first to the second pre-production rides, but many of our riders still felt there was too much. Personally, I like a little engine braking as it helps set you up for the next corner. Too much and the front end dives, especially in loose snow, too little and you are constantly on the brake. Ski-Doo is close to the right amount of engine braking, but as of our last ride, still wasn't quite there.
Rubber Band Syndrome. At press time this was being corrected, but due to a low initial engagement speed and extremely smooth shift-out, it sometimes felt like this sled was on a rubber band. That made it difficult at times to drive aggressively in the low-midrange of the powerband.
No storage! Just about anyone would sacrifice 2-3 lbs. to have a little trunk.
Final thoughts
Ski-Doo's Renegade 1200 is best suited for longer days as it takes less effort to ride than the Yamaha XTX. Yamaha has come a long way in figuring out the Nytro's front-end and we like the 144-in. track. You've really got to drive any Nytro-based sled, as the harder you push it, the better it will handle. If Ski-Doo can get the clutching dialed in on the 1200, it will possibly be the best first-year 4-stroke to date.
Basically, if you want a tougher sounding sled, with better off-trail capability, more initial burst from the engine and a sportier look, then the Yamaha XTX is your sled. If you want a sled that can rip up the powder AND still be an extremely comfortable long-mileage machine, go for the Renegade 1200X.
2009 Ski-Doo Renegade X 1200 4-TEC
Engine: 1170.7cc Rotax liquid triple DOHC 4-stroke
HP: 130 (S.D. claimed)
Exhaust: Single-head pipe, baffle muffler
Ski Stance: 47 in.
Front Susp.: Dual A-arm with T-A alum. Kayaba HPG clicker shocks
Rear Susp.: SC-5 w/T-A alum. Kayaba HPG front-arm shock and T-A alum. Kayaba HPG racing clicker rear-arm shock
Track: 16x137x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 10.6 gal.
Price: $11,299 US
Odds & Ends
Yamaha: The "trail" of their ski is larger
This means that the distance between the contact area of the ski and imaginary contact point of the steering axis with the ground was increased. More trail tends to mean more stability, while less makes for more positive steering.
Ski-Doo: Good on gas
The 4-TEC 1200 engine runs best on regular 87-octane fuel. OEM estimates show it getting 18.3 mpg/22 kpg too!
DRY WEIGHT VS. WET WEIGHT, WE DO THE MATH -
The Ski-Doo MXZ X Renegade 1200 weighs 521 lbs. dry and has a 10.6-gal. fuel tank. The Yamaha Nytro XTX weighs 542 lbs. dry and has a 7.4-gal. tank. If a standard U.S. gallon of unleaded gas weighs about 6.5 lbs. at riding temps (gas is more dense in cold temps), simply computing the wet weights after filling sleds with gas, these two would be almost exactly the same weight (less than a pound difference). So, after adding oil, antifreeze, brake fluid, grease and all the other little nuances, these sleds should be within pounds of each other when totally wet. We'll do our own wet weight tests later this season and find out!
Mark Savage
Second opinion
Nytro vs. Renegade - This tale of two crossovers boils down to engine vs. handling. Nytro's engine is a monster with great low-end pop, which makes it a hoot. But Nytro's handling, while improved from last season, doesn't match the Renegade's. Yet, the Renegade's engine, while good mid- to top-end, lacks pop off-the-line. Which do you want, hole shot or handling? On a long ride, I'd choose handling!
Mark Savage, Editor
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
TECH TESTS HOW-TO PRODUCTS
WELCOME to the NEW AMSNOW.com! Check out our latest additions - CLICK HERE
Comparison Test: Four play!
Ski-Doo takes on Yamaha in the 130-horse 4-stroke crossover market
Mark Boncher
8/18/2008
4-STROKE FEVER - We tested all the new 2009 crossover and high-performance 130-horse 4-strokes from Ski-Doo and Yamaha last spring on the same day. We ran them through big bumps, powder, tight trails and more! Kort Duce photos
CARVE THE TURKEY - The easy carving and deep snow side-hilling ability of the XTX is impressive and predictable. Let's just hope snow/ice doesn't still build up under the tunnel.
NYTRO UPGRADES - There now are big snow removal slashes in the running boards.
The mechanical reverse lever still annoys us.
Adjustable couplers on the rear skid plus shorter front A-arms help handling.
Flying high on the FX Nytro XTX.
TEC IDEAS - These hand-warmers on the Renegade are now the best in the biz.
We like the grab bar, a necessity on a crossover sled.
There's also plenty of room for a turbo under the hood, but the secondary is hard to remove, and it's not super-easy to change the clutching.
FIRST TRACKS - We were able to go nearly anywhere off-trail with this Renegade, and the rear end felt incredibly light for a big 4-stroke.
The Renegade is a fun sled to toss around and catch some air.
What we've seen in the last 3 years is a proliferation in the 4-stroke market.
While some Ski-Doo 2-stroke guys tell you demand for 4-strokes is dwindling and you won't see much growth there, Yamaha's 4-stroke guys say they've grown to be the No. 2 OEM simply on 4-stroke sales. In 2009, both are investing heavily in 4-strokes.
Yamaha and Ski-Doo are giving buyers more of what they want with long-track versions of their 130-hp 4-strokers. Enter the Nytro XTX and MXZ Renegade X 1200.
Yamaha goes long
It was expected that Yamaha would come with a long-track Nytro for '09, but few would have guessed the new Nytro XTX to be a full 144-in. long rendition.
As we've said many times, WE LOVE THIS ENGINE! The 1049cc, 3-cylinder, liquid 4-stroke was dynoed by Tech Editor Olav Aaen to have 138.6 hp at 8,500 rpm. So why not let it churn a 144-in. RipSaw track around a 6-degree tipped up rail?
This engine actually seems more at home with this application than the short-track version.
The Mikuni-carbed FI engine gets good gas mileage - 15.3 mpg in our Real World test - is reliable, runs on 87 octane, after its first break-in oil change it only needs to be changed every 2,500 miles, and it has an easy electric start.
In addition to the torquey engine, XTX also gets all new Nytro front-end updates AND a bump-straddling, torque-harnessing, 1.25-in. lugged, 15-in.-wide track. The fully coupled dual shock CK 144 rear suspension has a three-setting pre-load cam-type adjuster on the torsion springs so you can easily set ride height and stiffness to your liking. Also, coupling adjustments can be made via a turn of the collar on the control rods in back. You'll also get a remote reservoir adjustable clicker rear shock with 12 compression clicks.
Taking a cue from its mountain sled testers and snocrossers, Yamaha's XTX has big snow evacuation holes in the boards and a steeper running-board angle of 11 degrees vs. the former Nytro's 9 degrees. Yamaha also made significant changes to the front end of all its Nytro-based sleds. To make the sled more stable, the castor angle was increased from a more up and down 22 degrees to a relaxed 25.8 degrees. The trail at the ski bottom was increased here from 21.4mm to 42.5mm and a revised spindle and shorter A-arms were used to accommodate the castor angle change.
Camber also was increased and ski stance narrowed. You get GYTR dual-
clicker front shocks too, with 12 clicks of compression damping adjustment and 20 clicks of rebound damping adjustment. Talking with Yamaha engineers, they have experimented with slightly more "toe-out" on their '09 sleds. This was something we also worked on with our 2008 demo sled.
Initial hits
The engine, of course.
Tipped up rail. We liked it in the old Polaris Switchbacks too, but "market research" told Polaris that everyone wanted a 136-incher. We're glad Yamaha brought it back! Why sacrifice a shorter track when you can get all the on-trail benefits of a 121 and still have big bump-bridging capability and off-trail dominance? We'll see how this plays out, but I have a feeling this 144-inch Nytro XTX is going to steal sales from a lot of those 136-inchers.
Front end. We like the changes here and believe about 30-40% of the Nytro's darting and unpredictability in the corners has been dialed out. It corners flatter and there isn't as much nervousness in the bumps as last year's short-track.
Rear end. We also like being able to change coupling settings because last year there were NOT adjustable blocks on the Nytros. However, the XTX's couplers aren't as easy to change as some on other sleds.
Top speed. In initial speed runs, this thing has better top end than even some of its short-track brethren. On long open sweeping trails it will not give up anything to an 800 and seems to pull harder than any 700 from the last 3 years.
Running boards. Snow removal is much better with the big "slash" holes and the boards are easy to get a grip on.
Initial pits
Cold. This is inherent to the Nytro body style, the XTX is a cold ride. Even with the slightly larger windshield for this year, the Nytro isn't warm. There needs to be more heat in the handgrips too. Wattage needs to be increased to the bars ASAP if you want to ride XTX in temps less than 25 F.
Handlebar action. Nytro-based sleds are difficult, especially for smaller riders, to leverage in hard aggressive turns. Because the bars move in a more vertical action, riders actually end up pulling them into their crotch while the other end of the bar is high and away from one's body. Don't ask us how Steve Taylor does it for Team Yamaha on the snocross track.
Front-end dive. We noticed this last year on our Nytro, and it could partially be due to engine braking and suspension set-up, but after trying many adjustments, we think it might also simply be due to the sled's geometry. We noticed that every time we hit a big bump head on, the front end would basically dive into the bump unless we were heavily on the gas. While looking at our Nytro XTX photos, we noticed the front end kicked up a lot more snow than any other machine. If you are a snocross fan, we saw this on the race sled as well. Every time Steve Taylor hit a bump before take-off there was an explosion of snow around the front shocks.
No mountain grab bar. If you are going to have a 144-in. crossover sled that is a big 4-stroke, you should have a grab bar in the middle of the handlebars.
No storage. Saddlebags are your only option here.
2009 Yamaha XTX
Engine: 1049cc liquid triple 4-stroke
HP: 138.6 (AmSnow tested)
Exhaust: 2-valves, 3-1 rear exhaust
Ski Stance: 41.3 in.
Front Susp.: Next generation FX-style independent, double wishbone
Rear Susp.: Dual Shock CK 144-inch
Track: 15x144x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 7.4 gal.
Price: $10,549 US
Ski-Doo is all new
The yellow camp couldn't deny that there are buyers who simply want a 4-stroke, so Ski-Doo gave consumers a new high-performance, 130-hp 4-stroke, the 1200 4-TEC.
This 1170.7cc, dual-overhead cam, inline, 3-cylinder engine is available in models across Ski-Doo's line, but for this comparison we were interested in the 4-TEC powered MXZ Renegade X 1200.
The 137-in. long Renegade is built for crossover performance. The 1.25-in. lugged track is 16 inches wide so there's a big footprint for off-trail flotation.
Since this Renegade has the 4-stroke engine, it comes in the new REV/XR body, which has a wider hood and slightly different aesthetics than the REV/XP chassis. Several changes were made to the original XP chassis in order to house the larger 4-stroke mill, which brings the Renegade's dry weight to a Ski-Doo estimated 521 lbs.
One of the first things you'll notice on this sled is the low engagement speed of 2,800 rpm. It's sneaky fast on the draw, and if you just mash the throttle out of the gate, it won't even feel like you've started moving until you're suddenly cruising down the trail.The big 4-stroke engine winds out at a low 7,750 rpm too.
Initial hits
Shock calibration. The smoothness of the X-package prototype 1200 shock calibration was perfect. While this is an X-sled, it cycled through its suspension with plush initial stroke and also great bottoming resistance. Extra oil in the piggyback shocks kept them from fading as we got into the bigger bumps and pushed hard through the ripple bumps.
While we don't suggest trying this at home, we watched snocross rider Willie Elam do half a dozen whip-jumps off a natural ramp in Colorado, and the big 4-stroke took the landings well. Even Elam commented on the set-up. The Kayaba HPG clicker take-apart aluminum front shocks are easy to adjust and so is the racing clicker on the rear arm. An HPG take-apart aluminum shock also sits in the front arm.
Smoothness. Clutch engagement, throttle pull, exhaust tone and just about everything on this sled, from a performance standpoint was smooth. Cornering was impressive, but not quite up to the level of the 2-stroke XPs. We believe the small bit of tippiness we felt was due to a slightly taller vehicle height than the XP sleds (3.5 in. taller) and the heavier engine. The best "smoothness" feature of the 1200 was how easy the mechanical reverse was to shift. This is possibly the fastest forward to reverse and vice-versa system out there.
Top end. For only 130 horses, this sled hung right with the 700, 800 and larger straight 4-stroke sleds on the top end. It was not nearly as fast as some sleds out of the hole, but top-end speed was great.
Tank size. With a 10.6-gal. tank and at a Ski-Doo estimated 18.3 mpg, this sled's range should be more than 190 miles. We love not filling tanks every 60 miles, wasting time gassing up.
Initial pits
Brakes. The brakes felt mushy to everyone that rode the Renegade. It's very easy on this sled to build up speed because of the small amount of engine noise and with its long legs, a rider could conceivably get in trouble quickly without a super braking system. The brake set-up on the 1200 Renegade was mediocre.
Engine Braking. Much of the engine braking was dialed out from the first to the second pre-production rides, but many of our riders still felt there was too much. Personally, I like a little engine braking as it helps set you up for the next corner. Too much and the front end dives, especially in loose snow, too little and you are constantly on the brake. Ski-Doo is close to the right amount of engine braking, but as of our last ride, still wasn't quite there.
Rubber Band Syndrome. At press time this was being corrected, but due to a low initial engagement speed and extremely smooth shift-out, it sometimes felt like this sled was on a rubber band. That made it difficult at times to drive aggressively in the low-midrange of the powerband.
No storage! Just about anyone would sacrifice 2-3 lbs. to have a little trunk.
Final thoughts
Ski-Doo's Renegade 1200 is best suited for longer days as it takes less effort to ride than the Yamaha XTX. Yamaha has come a long way in figuring out the Nytro's front-end and we like the 144-in. track. You've really got to drive any Nytro-based sled, as the harder you push it, the better it will handle. If Ski-Doo can get the clutching dialed in on the 1200, it will possibly be the best first-year 4-stroke to date.
Basically, if you want a tougher sounding sled, with better off-trail capability, more initial burst from the engine and a sportier look, then the Yamaha XTX is your sled. If you want a sled that can rip up the powder AND still be an extremely comfortable long-mileage machine, go for the Renegade 1200X.
2009 Ski-Doo Renegade X 1200 4-TEC
Engine: 1170.7cc Rotax liquid triple DOHC 4-stroke
HP: 130 (S.D. claimed)
Exhaust: Single-head pipe, baffle muffler
Ski Stance: 47 in.
Front Susp.: Dual A-arm with T-A alum. Kayaba HPG clicker shocks
Rear Susp.: SC-5 w/T-A alum. Kayaba HPG front-arm shock and T-A alum. Kayaba HPG racing clicker rear-arm shock
Track: 16x137x1.25 in.
Fuel Tank: 10.6 gal.
Price: $11,299 US
Odds & Ends
Yamaha: The "trail" of their ski is larger
This means that the distance between the contact area of the ski and imaginary contact point of the steering axis with the ground was increased. More trail tends to mean more stability, while less makes for more positive steering.
Ski-Doo: Good on gas
The 4-TEC 1200 engine runs best on regular 87-octane fuel. OEM estimates show it getting 18.3 mpg/22 kpg too!
DRY WEIGHT VS. WET WEIGHT, WE DO THE MATH -
The Ski-Doo MXZ X Renegade 1200 weighs 521 lbs. dry and has a 10.6-gal. fuel tank. The Yamaha Nytro XTX weighs 542 lbs. dry and has a 7.4-gal. tank. If a standard U.S. gallon of unleaded gas weighs about 6.5 lbs. at riding temps (gas is more dense in cold temps), simply computing the wet weights after filling sleds with gas, these two would be almost exactly the same weight (less than a pound difference). So, after adding oil, antifreeze, brake fluid, grease and all the other little nuances, these sleds should be within pounds of each other when totally wet. We'll do our own wet weight tests later this season and find out!
Mark Savage
Second opinion
Nytro vs. Renegade - This tale of two crossovers boils down to engine vs. handling. Nytro's engine is a monster with great low-end pop, which makes it a hoot. But Nytro's handling, while improved from last season, doesn't match the Renegade's. Yet, the Renegade's engine, while good mid- to top-end, lacks pop off-the-line. Which do you want, hole shot or handling? On a long ride, I'd choose handling!
Mark Savage, Editor
jds1000
Expert
rj998 said:
I have a 1200 X pkg shortie and my wife has a 08 Nytro ER. She loves her Nytro and I prefere the 1200. The 1200 in my opinion rides and handles way better than any Yamaha. I also own an Apex that has 6500 miles and it feels like a tank compared to either the 1200 or Nytro. This shouldn't be a big surprise to anyone since Doo has had a better chassis than Yamaha for many years. The 1200 XR rides and handles like any other Doo and Yamaha is still searching for the magic solution to thier handling woes with the Nytro. They are both very reliable sleds and the quality of both is excelent. I have 3200 miles on both sleds with original everything except the reverse spring on the 1200 and ball joints on the Nytro. I did have to tow my wife and her Nytro after a wire rub problem and now I think it needs exhaust donuts but everything else has been great. My 1200 needs nothing and I'm super impressed with it. I keep reading Turks remarks about how the 1200 engine is such old tech but it is quieter and smoother than my Nytro, gets better mileage and is faster from mid to top. Maybe Yamaha should simplify thier engines and put more tech into thier chassis. I don't know what sled would be best for you but I would buy another 1200 X pkg in a heartbeat. The only way I'm buying another Nytro is if my wife wants one.
Turk
Tech Advisor
Again
Compare 09 to an 09.
I didn,t realize how many issues my 08 nytro had till i got my 09 xtx. Let,s compare similar year sleds.
My 09 xtx blows away my 08 fx. Can,t believe they are only 1 model year apart.
Yes the 1200 is faster on top but it is a 1200cc big bore 4 stroke so it very well should be. It has a similar stroke to a nytro but a much larger bore.
I am good buds with the local doo dealer. He got a 09 rtx-se on trade for a quad cus the owner got into a bad car accident & could not ride. The mechanics rode it (my clutching) & all agreed it was way more fun then their 1200.
This was a unanimous agreement from 3 doo mechanics.
Compare 09 to an 09.
I didn,t realize how many issues my 08 nytro had till i got my 09 xtx. Let,s compare similar year sleds.
My 09 xtx blows away my 08 fx. Can,t believe they are only 1 model year apart.
Yes the 1200 is faster on top but it is a 1200cc big bore 4 stroke so it very well should be. It has a similar stroke to a nytro but a much larger bore.
I am good buds with the local doo dealer. He got a 09 rtx-se on trade for a quad cus the owner got into a bad car accident & could not ride. The mechanics rode it (my clutching) & all agreed it was way more fun then their 1200.
This was a unanimous agreement from 3 doo mechanics.
Daranello
Suspended
Turk said:
I agree with you 100% Turk, but I'm seeing better top end than the 1200 I raced, we are both 100% Stock...
AmSnow mag also found the XTX to have better top end over the 1200doo also. http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php? ... ght=faster
madthumper
Extreme
Turk said:
lol...an SE model clutched for short drag racing was more fun than a run of the mill 1200. Shocker.
TVBrian
Pro
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2009
- Messages
- 197
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 196
- Location
- Port Perry, Ontario
- Website
- www.portperrysnowmobileclub.com
Last year I spent a day with the Ski-Doo R&D team (the day before our Doo Demo Ride) they had us testing both the 1200 and the e-tec. Now keep in mind my opinions will be based on prototype sleds and not production (as far as Doo goes anyways). Basically they had us on 12 "different" 1200's all with different suspension and clutching packages, all numbered, we would take them out and then rate and describe what each was good for. For this reason I will not comment on the chassis beyond the sitting position and "feel" since every sled I rode had totally different suspension setups. When I first jumped on the 1200 I thought WOW, this is a smooth 4 stroke, then I said to myself, oh ya 4 stroke must be heavy! So I jumped off and went to pickup the front end... WOW NOT heavy! So off we went, relatively good throttle response, though at that time I still liked the "snap" of a 2 stroke. It was smooth and you could really feel that torque, which I liked. The engine braking (once I got used to it) was really a blessing on cornering as it would allow you to fly into a corner let off, front end would drop and grab, then it would roll through the corner and nail the throttle on exit... It certainly made for a fun ride. The chassis felt quite different from the "XP" being that this is wider and to me felt a little more "cruiser". I personally like a fun "flickable" sled. My thoughts after riding it were, I like the motor... But I just can't see myself leaving my crossfire for the chassis, since it just didn't seem to "fit" me.
Now the Nytro..... I first rode the Nytro in 08... HA HA HA, And said to myself, What a POS!!! So at this years Yamaha ride (09) I really had not desire to ride one. But at the end of the day, Our Yamaha Canada rep was buggin me that I had to try this XTX (since I do like long tracks)... So I said OK. I took it out for only about 30mins, BUT it was enough time since I got to put it through all the same trails that I normally throw my crossfire through. First off the Motor, Smoother than the 1200, for sure... My biggest complaint with 4 strokes has been that they seemed to be missing that "fun factor" that I love about the 2 strokes, that snap.... The Nytro changed that!! Nytro also seems to have the same good engine braking characteristics as the Doo...The chassis (for 09) also just seemed to fit my style, it almost felt like a bike, like you had so much control of the sled with your legs, It really makes you feel "one" with the sled, rather than with the Doo I felt like I was sitting on something. Knowing damn well that the Nytro was a fair bit heavier than the Doo, I figured for sure I would feel it on the trail... I didn't!! I imagine you will feel it when boondocking with it, but I didn't get to try that. I also picked up the Nytro (same as I did the Doo), Yamaha must have this sled pretty balanced cause from the back end it feels lighter than my CF, and only a little heavier in the front end than the CF.
So this season I had to make a choice.... I was leaving Cat, cause I don't have a local dealer.... Too bad because I REALLY love the crossfire and it has been a flawless sled for me for 9000+ miles. I tossed around between the Doo 1200 (even thought of a 600 e-tec) renegade a Nytro XTX.... In the end I choose the XTX and I will be picking it up in a few weeks.
Now the Nytro..... I first rode the Nytro in 08... HA HA HA, And said to myself, What a POS!!! So at this years Yamaha ride (09) I really had not desire to ride one. But at the end of the day, Our Yamaha Canada rep was buggin me that I had to try this XTX (since I do like long tracks)... So I said OK. I took it out for only about 30mins, BUT it was enough time since I got to put it through all the same trails that I normally throw my crossfire through. First off the Motor, Smoother than the 1200, for sure... My biggest complaint with 4 strokes has been that they seemed to be missing that "fun factor" that I love about the 2 strokes, that snap.... The Nytro changed that!! Nytro also seems to have the same good engine braking characteristics as the Doo...The chassis (for 09) also just seemed to fit my style, it almost felt like a bike, like you had so much control of the sled with your legs, It really makes you feel "one" with the sled, rather than with the Doo I felt like I was sitting on something. Knowing damn well that the Nytro was a fair bit heavier than the Doo, I figured for sure I would feel it on the trail... I didn't!! I imagine you will feel it when boondocking with it, but I didn't get to try that. I also picked up the Nytro (same as I did the Doo), Yamaha must have this sled pretty balanced cause from the back end it feels lighter than my CF, and only a little heavier in the front end than the CF.
So this season I had to make a choice.... I was leaving Cat, cause I don't have a local dealer.... Too bad because I REALLY love the crossfire and it has been a flawless sled for me for 9000+ miles. I tossed around between the Doo 1200 (even thought of a 600 e-tec) renegade a Nytro XTX.... In the end I choose the XTX and I will be picking it up in a few weeks.
Turk
Tech Advisor
Doo 1200 is great good sit down & ride sled.
Won,t lift up the front end over bumps as well as the nytro as it does feel a lot front heavier.
nytro better in powder as the front end comes up a lot easier.
the 09 i clutched was not set up for races; just had the stock clutching slightly tweaked to grab the belt better initially on take off. Nice assumption tho.
Won,t lift up the front end over bumps as well as the nytro as it does feel a lot front heavier.
nytro better in powder as the front end comes up a lot easier.
the 09 i clutched was not set up for races; just had the stock clutching slightly tweaked to grab the belt better initially on take off. Nice assumption tho.
jds1000
Expert
Turk said:
I'm sure the 09 is a much better sled but like I have said many times before I will keep my opinions based on what I own and not speculate like others do. I also have a friend who had an 08 Nytro who took it in the arse and traded for a 09 Nytro because of the so called handling improvements. He said that it was an improvement over his 08 but nothing earth shattering and has now ordered a 2010 1200 X because he is sick and tired of trying to get his Nytro to handle and ride the way he likes. He said it handles really good in loose snow but in hardpacked or frozen trail conditions its still very scary to ride. My wife on the other hand feels her Nytro is far and away the best handling sled she has ever had. She just can't get over how much she likes her "little bug" (thats what she calls it). I don't care much for her Nytro and don't feel very comfortable on it. I must have done something right when I set her sled up because when she reads all the complaining from Nytro owners about how it handles she just laughs.
Daranello
Suspended
Atleast Yamaha believes in there product.... I got a 5 year Warranty with my XTX, Skidoo only offers a 1 year with the 1200x...thanks but no thanks
sgilbert
TY 4 Stroke Guru
do the 1200's come with their new version of pilot/duel scag? that would explain alot here. As heavy as my apex was in front, the skis were brutal in hardpack. went to pilots and changed everything, suspension changes to go with and so on. totally different animal. less agressive, yes, but made possible to set handling right. just put my new xtx beside it and have no doubt will possibly need skis. plan to try first. I know my buddies 09 fx was not nearly as brutal with stock skis, but could still see putting pilots on it.
on another note, after being used to looking at my apex, I really dont like the looks of this xtx, but I didn't buy it to look at or be seen.
lastly, I wouldn,t consider any mods but suspension and clutching, but if your after power, I'm pretty sure I could put turbo on this and still come out cheaper than a stock 1200. which is a bonus as I'd trust it more anyway
on another note, after being used to looking at my apex, I really dont like the looks of this xtx, but I didn't buy it to look at or be seen.
lastly, I wouldn,t consider any mods but suspension and clutching, but if your after power, I'm pretty sure I could put turbo on this and still come out cheaper than a stock 1200. which is a bonus as I'd trust it more anyway
rj998
Pro
Thanks for all the replies, seems as most people that left to doo are staying there and those who left doo are going back, everyone rides different, I think when its all over no matter what I get I will be glad I still have my light 830 rev to rally on!
shadow44
TY 4 Stroke God
3 things TVBrian....I rode the same 08 Nytros you did and I didn't find them that bad. The trails you guys groomed that day were good but they were very loose and decent traction was an issue. Even my F7 was darty that day, plus you have to take into account that those sleds weren't dialed in suspension wise. My only complaint was the harsh engagement..but that is a minor fix.
Second...how can you say a Yammi 4stroke has no fun factor or snap? An apex has as much snap as the CF7..they flat out rip!
Third.....the 1200 does not weight that much less then the Nytro...in the shorty there is only about 10lbs difference dry...factor in that Doo has a larger gas tank and the yammi is lighter....I'd say the XTX and 1200 Renegade would be in the same range...one has more track the other has a larger gas tank.
I am glad to see you jumped ship to Yammi though...i'm picking up an 08 Nytro RTX from Steve at FS Motorsports..you and I need to get out for a rip next season buddy...Whats Nutter getiing?
Second...how can you say a Yammi 4stroke has no fun factor or snap? An apex has as much snap as the CF7..they flat out rip!
Third.....the 1200 does not weight that much less then the Nytro...in the shorty there is only about 10lbs difference dry...factor in that Doo has a larger gas tank and the yammi is lighter....I'd say the XTX and 1200 Renegade would be in the same range...one has more track the other has a larger gas tank.
I am glad to see you jumped ship to Yammi though...i'm picking up an 08 Nytro RTX from Steve at FS Motorsports..you and I need to get out for a rip next season buddy...Whats Nutter getiing?
Attachments
![IMG_2830 [320x200].jpg](/data/attachments/32/32096-3fdb3d3efe9c9fe7e6de591a7f4e5e23.jpg?hash=P9s9Pv6cn-)
Daranello
Suspended
Its funny to see all my old Cat buddies (I'm a former F7 rider) from the Ontario section at HCS....Welcome to the Club...
TVBrian
Pro
- Joined
- Mar 17, 2009
- Messages
- 197
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 196
- Location
- Port Perry, Ontario
- Website
- www.portperrysnowmobileclub.com
I guess I should have gone into some more detail on those things, lol, My bad! You are certainly correct that the trails that day weren't ideal (lol, I actually think we were closed just a few days before that)... My comparison of the 08 was to the other Yamaha's there, since thats about all you can compare them too for the reasons you meantion, not setup for me, no studs, etc etc... To me it just didn't feel stable, I didn't feel like I was in control of the sled, like it was kinda driving me, which is something I didn't feel on any of the other sleds that day.
My reference to 4 strokes not having that snap, was from my previous experience with 4 strokes.... being the cat T660 and the FST. At the time I hadn't spent any time on a yamaha 4 stroke, as I said yamaha changed my opinion of 4 strokes (Doo is following now with the 1200).
The weight was an assumption on my part at the time (of the Doo Demo Ride), as you stated, and I now know from researching it myself, the weights are really a none issue between the two, however at the time of the Doo ride (which is what I was describing) I didn't know that... I figured I would keep my views accurate to the time of the ride, when writing this.
Cool, I didn't know you were coming over to the blue camp too!! I was pretty well sold after this years demo ride, after everyone left I got to take a XTX out for a "actual" ride.... And well once I came back, that was pretty well it for me.
I picked up a Black and White 09 XTX with a couple hundred miles on it for $12,000 OTD (studded with a cover)..... However it won't be Black and White for long!!!
Stay tuned for "Project Northern Ascent"!!!
I have been reading here for a bit trying to decide what I wanna do to the sled to make it mine, as some of you know, I don't really like the OEM looks. I think I have everything picked out, but I have to wait until I actually have the sled in the garage before finally making up my mind.
I'm sure we will see each other out on the pond come december. Or around the clubhouse. As far as Nutter goes, I have a feeling he is gonna stick with the 800 gade that he has now, He finally has all the issues worked out with it. But you never know, he keeps saying he wants to go 4 stroke, if he does I think he will be going with the 1200.
My reference to 4 strokes not having that snap, was from my previous experience with 4 strokes.... being the cat T660 and the FST. At the time I hadn't spent any time on a yamaha 4 stroke, as I said yamaha changed my opinion of 4 strokes (Doo is following now with the 1200).
The weight was an assumption on my part at the time (of the Doo Demo Ride), as you stated, and I now know from researching it myself, the weights are really a none issue between the two, however at the time of the Doo ride (which is what I was describing) I didn't know that... I figured I would keep my views accurate to the time of the ride, when writing this.
Cool, I didn't know you were coming over to the blue camp too!! I was pretty well sold after this years demo ride, after everyone left I got to take a XTX out for a "actual" ride.... And well once I came back, that was pretty well it for me.
I picked up a Black and White 09 XTX with a couple hundred miles on it for $12,000 OTD (studded with a cover)..... However it won't be Black and White for long!!!
Stay tuned for "Project Northern Ascent"!!!
I have been reading here for a bit trying to decide what I wanna do to the sled to make it mine, as some of you know, I don't really like the OEM looks. I think I have everything picked out, but I have to wait until I actually have the sled in the garage before finally making up my mind.
I'm sure we will see each other out on the pond come december. Or around the clubhouse. As far as Nutter goes, I have a feeling he is gonna stick with the 800 gade that he has now, He finally has all the issues worked out with it. But you never know, he keeps saying he wants to go 4 stroke, if he does I think he will be going with the 1200.
