dnj1965
Newbie
Hi all,
Went to the Syracuse "Snowmobile Sneak-Peak" tonight. All four makers there. Spoke to three different Yamaha Reps and got three answers to a question I'm struggling with.
The question:
44 year old relatively new rider with dirt-bike and dual-sport motorcycle experience. Also a history of back pain due to a slipped disk. Most riding on semi-rough to semi-smooth trails (Old Forge, Tug Hill, Central NY, etc.). Hope to have one or two trips a year to Ontario and/or Quebec. Current riding partners push a hard pace and next year will be on a 2011 Ski Doo with an 800 e-tech, a 2011 Polaris Rush 800 Pro-R, and a yet-to-be-determined ride but likely an Arctic Cat of some sort. I'm currently on a Cat (2002 ZR 500).
I'm a Yamaha fan and would like to go Blue (well, actually, maybe candy red)
Rep #1 says Regular Apex or Vector LTX GT. Claims the skid response of these is more "reactive" than the Apex XTX and the seating position and wind protection superior to the Nytro. Says, almost apologetically, that the Vector is something to seriously consider unless lake running or riding straight trails, as between 0-70 it keeps up the the Apex, is significantly lighter, and cheaper (yikes, is it ever!).
Rep #2 says Nytro XTX. Claims it has the most "tunable" suspension, handles the rough stuff better than any Apex or Vector, and is acceptable for trail ridding.
Rep #3 says Apex XTX all the way. Skid design and EPS make it handle like a 121" on the trails, it bridges bumps better than the 128" or 136", hooks up better than the shorter tracks, and has excellent off-trail handling and bump handling unless "ditch banging" or jumping (in which case "go with the Nytro").
All three seemed to know what they are talking about, which suggests to me that this is a difficult question. I'm leaning towards the Apex XTX as, frankly, it just "felt" right. I'd need a riser, as I want to stand sometimes (about 20% of the time - I'm mostly a sit down rider). I don't want to piss away an extra $3k if I don't need to, but after riding the 128" apex on a test ride earlier this year, I'm leaning towards Apex but think the rougher riding may be better on the XTX while it would still have excellent smooth trail manners.
Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks.
Side note: The fit and finish of the sleds at the show was clearly in Yamaha's favor. I did try to lift the front of the Apex XTX... NO GO. If I get stuck on that thing, I'm STUCK.
dnj
Went to the Syracuse "Snowmobile Sneak-Peak" tonight. All four makers there. Spoke to three different Yamaha Reps and got three answers to a question I'm struggling with.
The question:
44 year old relatively new rider with dirt-bike and dual-sport motorcycle experience. Also a history of back pain due to a slipped disk. Most riding on semi-rough to semi-smooth trails (Old Forge, Tug Hill, Central NY, etc.). Hope to have one or two trips a year to Ontario and/or Quebec. Current riding partners push a hard pace and next year will be on a 2011 Ski Doo with an 800 e-tech, a 2011 Polaris Rush 800 Pro-R, and a yet-to-be-determined ride but likely an Arctic Cat of some sort. I'm currently on a Cat (2002 ZR 500).
I'm a Yamaha fan and would like to go Blue (well, actually, maybe candy red)
Rep #1 says Regular Apex or Vector LTX GT. Claims the skid response of these is more "reactive" than the Apex XTX and the seating position and wind protection superior to the Nytro. Says, almost apologetically, that the Vector is something to seriously consider unless lake running or riding straight trails, as between 0-70 it keeps up the the Apex, is significantly lighter, and cheaper (yikes, is it ever!).
Rep #2 says Nytro XTX. Claims it has the most "tunable" suspension, handles the rough stuff better than any Apex or Vector, and is acceptable for trail ridding.
Rep #3 says Apex XTX all the way. Skid design and EPS make it handle like a 121" on the trails, it bridges bumps better than the 128" or 136", hooks up better than the shorter tracks, and has excellent off-trail handling and bump handling unless "ditch banging" or jumping (in which case "go with the Nytro").
All three seemed to know what they are talking about, which suggests to me that this is a difficult question. I'm leaning towards the Apex XTX as, frankly, it just "felt" right. I'd need a riser, as I want to stand sometimes (about 20% of the time - I'm mostly a sit down rider). I don't want to piss away an extra $3k if I don't need to, but after riding the 128" apex on a test ride earlier this year, I'm leaning towards Apex but think the rougher riding may be better on the XTX while it would still have excellent smooth trail manners.
Any advice would be appreciated! Thanks.
Side note: The fit and finish of the sleds at the show was clearly in Yamaha's favor. I did try to lift the front of the Apex XTX... NO GO. If I get stuck on that thing, I'm STUCK.
dnj
Agman 57
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All 3 sleds are different animals. That's why it is so hard to say which is best. I have had 2 Nytro XTX's and love them. If you like to stand up and move around, that is the sled you want, and they are lighter and great off trail.
If you do mostly long distance trail riding the Apex is the way to go. I have driven both of the 2011 models and much prefer the XTX version. You have alot more traction in the corners and it is much better off trail, but a little heavier than the Nytro's.
The Vector is very spirited, has the Nytro motor in it and is in the old Apex chassis. The price is much better than the new Apex. If you need all the power you can get, then you need to go to the Apex, or add boost to the Nytro or Vector. I put a blower on one of my Nytro's this year and love it. It really brought that sled alive.
I've got a new Apex XTX coming for the wife to trail ride with for next year. Hope all this sheds light on your decision and not more confusion.
If you do mostly long distance trail riding the Apex is the way to go. I have driven both of the 2011 models and much prefer the XTX version. You have alot more traction in the corners and it is much better off trail, but a little heavier than the Nytro's.
The Vector is very spirited, has the Nytro motor in it and is in the old Apex chassis. The price is much better than the new Apex. If you need all the power you can get, then you need to go to the Apex, or add boost to the Nytro or Vector. I put a blower on one of my Nytro's this year and love it. It really brought that sled alive.
I've got a new Apex XTX coming for the wife to trail ride with for next year. Hope all this sheds light on your decision and not more confusion.
weasel33
Expert
if you have back pain i would go for the nytro just because its so easy to stand up on if the trail get bumpy. i used to sit a lot but since i got my nytro i find i stand a lot more just because its so easy to stand. those people that say you cant ride 300 mile on a nytro in a day are clueless because (at least for me) its the only sled ive ridden that doesn't hurt my back. the apex and vector may be smoother, but you cant just stand up and let the sled hit the bump like you can on a nytro.
dnj1965
Newbie
Thanks guys.
How much a factor is the EPS? Hows the steering effort on the Nytro on tight bumpy trails?
How much a factor is the EPS? Hows the steering effort on the Nytro on tight bumpy trails?
sgilbert
TY 4 Stroke Guru
the nytro is like have a zr in either hand as far as steering effort is concerned. if I were a new rider at 44 I would scratch that one off
sherlock29
TY 4 Stroke Guru
Just my 2 cents.... i have alot of seat time on the Nytro xtx, and yes it will out handle the apex in the bumps, its over 100 lbs lighter, but steering effort is ALOT more... apex sleds are high mileage power cruisers... they love big trails to stretch their legs, i have a combined mileage of about 18000 miles on both my apex's and love them. if i starting out in the 4 stroke market, and wanted a very capable trail cruiser the vector GT LTX would be close to the top of the list.... if you have back probs... get rid of the short tracks... my 40th is a 136 and the handling diference is very noticeble compaired to the 121.. in fact... i'm never going to buy a shorty again...
the Nytro is a good sled, but i cant seem to get used to the front end handling at 75mph plus... the apex chassy is so at home at higher speeds.. Not sure what my next will be... probably the apex 144...or stretch mine.. hope this helps...
the Nytro is a good sled, but i cant seem to get used to the front end handling at 75mph plus... the apex chassy is so at home at higher speeds.. Not sure what my next will be... probably the apex 144...or stretch mine.. hope this helps...
sgilbert
TY 4 Stroke Guru
x2, go long or go home. I have some zr's and they are about as good a short track as it gets imo. 136 should be the new short track as far as these tanks go
dnj1965
Newbie
Given the amount of money involved I reserve the right to change my mind more often than a 16-year-old girl shopping for a prom dress...
Right now I'm leaning towards a 2011 Apex XTX in Candy Red with a 4" riser on the steering (I'm 6' 2").
Thanks for all the comments.
Question about ordering in the Spring: If Yamaha comes out with rebates or reduced pricing in November or December, is a Spring order out of luck?
Right now I'm leaning towards a 2011 Apex XTX in Candy Red with a 4" riser on the steering (I'm 6' 2").
Thanks for all the comments.
Question about ordering in the Spring: If Yamaha comes out with rebates or reduced pricing in November or December, is a Spring order out of luck?
sgilbert
TY 4 Stroke Guru
thats why its the most expensive
Agman 57
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2018 Sidewinder LTX LE, 50th Ann.
2017 Sidewinder BTX LE
1992 V-Max 4 (Modded)
2002 ZR 120 G-daughter's
My dealer says that if they come out with a program later on, that it is to also apply to the spring orders. They would have to or else know one would order early. I think you are heading down the right path. If you need some risers, which is what I am going to do also to mine, look at Lake Effect's, Chris has some really nice ones, that you can do all kinds of things with, as far as mounting GPS, etc. etc.. Good Luck
dnj1965
Newbie
Just spoke with my dealer, whom I really like and trust.
Based on his knowledge of me and the area, he thinks regular Apex. He thinks for my purposes the mono-skid, with a HyGear re-valve, is a better suspension than the XTX 144" skid. Given his experience with the area and knowledge of me, I think I'd be an idiot to not listen to him. So now I'm leaning towards the regular Apex...
Thanks to all who have posted to this thread and elsewhere on the 2011 Apex models.
Based on his knowledge of me and the area, he thinks regular Apex. He thinks for my purposes the mono-skid, with a HyGear re-valve, is a better suspension than the XTX 144" skid. Given his experience with the area and knowledge of me, I think I'd be an idiot to not listen to him. So now I'm leaning towards the regular Apex...
Thanks to all who have posted to this thread and elsewhere on the 2011 Apex models.
SledFreak
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dnj1965 said:
After speaking with Chris Reid from YAMAHA Canada who is the product manager for Yamaha Canada, he picked the Apex XTX over the 128" for Groomed trail rding... That's gotta tell you something...
sleddingfarmer
TY 4 Stroke God
I think the apex is the right choice, and I'd go with the 144. I don't know how much better that mono skid will be with that giant fox float in it, but they don't resist bottoming very well. Very nice smooth suspension for groomed trail riding, small stutter bumps dont effect the driver much at all. But for aggressive riding it blows through its travel quickly (from what i've ridden).
Plus if you ever want to go off trail, you don't want to do it with a short track. Cause like you said, you'll be stuck.
Plus if you ever want to go off trail, you don't want to do it with a short track. Cause like you said, you'll be stuck.
dnj1965
Newbie
Chris Reid's knowledge and experience are hard to beat, so a lot of weight has to go into that opinion. That written, what I don't know is whether his idea of "groomed trail" fits with the reality of what I ride on most of the time (which includes tight and twisty junk, squeezing between trees 4.5 feet apart, etc.).
My dealer has a lot of experience himself *and* knows the local trail conditions. I can't think of a reason for him to want to sell me a regular APEX over an XTX and every reason to want me to be happy. Thus when he says I'll regret the XTX, and to avoid the SE and just buy the regular APEX, I've got to consider that as well.
Back to being confused... lol
My dealer has a lot of experience himself *and* knows the local trail conditions. I can't think of a reason for him to want to sell me a regular APEX over an XTX and every reason to want me to be happy. Thus when he says I'll regret the XTX, and to avoid the SE and just buy the regular APEX, I've got to consider that as well.
Back to being confused... lol
SledFreak
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dnj1965 said:Chris Reid's knowledge and experience are hard to beat, so a lot of weight has to go into that opinion. That written, what I don't know is whether his idea of "groomed trail" fits with the reality of what I ride on most of the time (which includes tight and twisty junk, squeezing between trees 4.5 feet apart, etc.).
My dealer has a lot of experience himself *and* knows the local trail conditions. I can't think of a reason for him to want to sell me a regular APEX over an XTX and every reason to want me to be happy. Thus when he says I'll regret the XTX, and to avoid the SE and just buy the regular APEX, I've got to consider that as well.
Back to being confused... lol
Well, Chris has alot of seat time on both and when I talked to him, he said the XTX gave up very little, as far as cornering is concerned. He was ready to order a 128" until he drove a 144 an now that is what he is ordering for next year. The XTX will be better when the trail gets rougher and will be the same when it's smooth. Remember it's really all in the valving, but the pro-active skid can take a pounding better then the mono and with the calibration Yamaha put out this year for the Apex 2011, the Apex should be a good in every configuration that Yamaha will offer. So don't look at the shocks, because it's really all in the calibration of the shocks. If you are riding twistie trails alot, I believe the Apex is not the sled for that. The Apex is made for wide open groomed trails..
Looking back at your original post, I believe the Nytro XTX would be the sled for you based on your motor-x riding style from before. You sit up a little higher, then the Apex.
I may get beat up for this, but IMO, depending on your buddies driving skills, you are goiing to have a hard time keeping up with a e-tec 800. For one.... they are fast and handle awesome. But, the realiability will be owned by Yamaha. Not to say you can't get a Yamaha to be the same or close, but it will cost you in shock calibrating. The Nytro XTX sounds to me to be a closer match to you, but it won't have the power of an e-tec or handling. Now you can get it close with some teaking and some money... Hygear with a sport package re-valve/spring would do the trick. K&N filters, exhaust, clutching and PCIII will be closer for power, but again at a cost... I have probably made your decision even harder.. LOL.... But, you need to see the reality and what your main riding area is. If you ride Tug Hill or rough areas I hear it gets pretty rough and in a hurry... If that is only a small percentage of the time, then a Yamaha will be good as well.
I also think you should, if you are that concerned about what to get, then wait till the snow flys and try them all first. It's not like you are getting that much of a deal ordering now. You will find the same deals come late Dec or early Jan of 2011.
