2020 Front end

[SumpBuster]

Doo added 10mm of front travel is all, they also went to over 49.6" of width to the front to compensate. I told my Doo buddy all along that it wasn't going to be a "BIG THING" or change from what he already had, just a change to get the masses to believe a "big change" was made. Sure enough, he got all last Friday to Demo the new sled and it wasn't much if any different at all than his old 850. They do this stuff all the time to market and sell sleds. Just make it sound good and people will trade in and buy. The dealer sent it out with the skis in the narrower position because they can't legally sell it with the skis in the "wide position". Hence it was actually tippier than his old sled! Asked him if he was thinking of buying and he didn't think is was any big change. His kid who is a real sled head, said our winders handle just soo much better than the Doos. He actually owns a Viper himself but has owned them all at one point or another. He came off a Polaris Rush for his last sled. He was working hard to keep up with myself and and and another winder in our group, and he could see we weren't working hard at all. He had all he could do to keep the skis on the ground not roll it over! He really didn't think much of the new 850 Doo!

If they don't seem to make changes every season, how will the sleds sell and people trade in? Smoke & mirrors, and the magazines promote it because that's how their bread is buttered. Just the other day I saw an "ADVERTORIAL" to the new 850. Everything the marketing spinners promote in their press releases!


Hey, at least they called it an ADVERTORIAL! Check it out. SO DRAMATICALLY alters the handling! NOT!!!



http://www.supertraxmag.com/feature...dramatically-alter-g4-ride-and-handling/n3945


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For me, lower has always been better handling. Always.

 

[actionjack]

I realize that this thread started out discussing the changes/improvements made to the 2020 model front ends but since it's recently steered towards flat handling I thought that I'd chime in with a few thoughts.

I totally agree with what KnappAttack just commented on concerning Ski Doo's "improved" front end on some of their 2021 models. I talked to a friend who was riding with Mike's buddy last Friday who had the new demo 850 model and he pretty much echoed Mike's comments about the new Ski Doo front end.

Back in 2017 when I started building my SideWinder I was able to pick up a Z-Broz 45" wide stance kit from someone I know that had a spare kit available. This kit consists of wider stance A-Arms along with longer tie rods for the steering. With a set of Custom Axis shocks bolted on to the sled this has become the absolute flattest cornering sled that I've ever driven. Anyone who's ever driven my sled has made similar comments.

When Yamaha first introduced the Apex models back in 2006 Mountain Performance made some 45" stance A-arm kits for them, and I installed their kit on my Apex and it really improved the handling and flat cornering abilities of that sled. Their kits for the Apex's are still sought after by the Apex fans. Mountain Performance has gone by the way side but I thought that I heard of a Canadian based shop that was making them again.

Now the bad news for us SW fans....Z-Broz discontinued making this 45" wide stance kit a few years ago due to lack of demand. Their intended market for the kits were for Hill Climb and Hill Cross racers. I believe that the 45" center to center of the ski stance is also too wide to be considered legal on most trail systems. A 48" stance to the outside of the skis is considered the legal norm for trails in most states/provinces, and that's what the OEM's have to deal with to sell a legal sled that complies with the regulations. With the 45" wide stance kit this brings the outside stance of my sleds to about 52" using the SLP MoHawk skis that I've got on the sled.

I was able to find a used Z-Broz 45" wide stance kit last summer on a web site that I installed on my wife's 2018 SW. After her first ride this season she's already commented on how the handling has improved and doesn't show any signs of unwanted ski lift in the corners. She's not a real active rider and hardly ever leans into a corner. She just sits upright and points the sled into the corner. I followed her on a recent ride and she looked a lot more comfortable going deeper into the corners at a greater speed than I've ever seen her do before.

I'm pretty sure that 45" is the maximum allowable ski stance used in the Soo 500 Enduro race where the highest cornering speeds along with flat cornering are two traits that every racer is looking for. Here's an interesting link to an article about a sled that the Arctic Cat race dept. built a few years ago for the Soo 500: http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Up-Close-2015-Soo-500-Winning-Arctic-Cat-ZR6000R

I'd like to ride a 2020 SW with the new front end so I could directly compare how it handles/corners to my sled with the wider stance.

Later this spring I plan on talking to an aftermarket company that I've dealt with for years about the possibility of them building a 45" stance kit for the SW/Viper models and will post any news if they are interested or not. Since the stance is too wide to comply with the current trail regulations I suspect that they might not want to go down that road.

I wanted to share this info for anyone that's interested in what I've found to be the flattest cornering set up that I've found for the SideWinders. There's got to be some of the Z-Broz kits still out there if anyone would want to consider one. Keep checking different websites like I did and you might be able to find one. Forty Five is where it's at in my book.

View attachment 153502

Your sleds are very sharp. Without going to wider A-Arms you can get a pre-'20 Winder even flatter with CA MTX skis which gives a wider footprint. I'm still adjust out some of the steering effort however.

 

[hellflyer]

IMHO the 20 is much better in the rough stuff than my 16 viper le with qs3. Way less bottoming of the front skid. My 16 hit hard a lot on the center shock, my 20 never seems to. I also lowered the front as much as possible to the point where the a-arms are level.

 

[KnappAttack]

IMHO the 20 is much better in the rough stuff than my 16 viper le with qs3. Way less bottoming of the front skid. My 16 hit hard a lot on the center shock, my 20 never seems to. I also lowered the front as much as possible to the point where the a-arms are level.

Comparing the handling and ride of a Viper to a Winder is apples to oranges.

 

[cannondale27]

Comparing the handling and ride of a Viper to a Winder is apples to oranges.

Ha they are all cats! Was a lot of geometry changes since 14 though.

 

[KnappAttack]

Ha they are all cats! Was a lot of geometry changes since 14 though.

That is true however, lots of changes to shocks and geometry along with the excess weight added to the Winder. It's like 60-70 lbs heavier!

What I'm trying to say is you can't make the difference in the front end spindle length using a 16 Viper to a 20 Sidewinder. That's like apples to oranges.

Have to compare like machine to like machine.

 

[cannondale27]

That is true however, lots of changes to shocks and geometry along with the excess weight added to the Winder. It's like 60-70 lbs heavier!

What I'm trying to say is you can't make the difference in the front end spindle length using a 16 Viper to a 20 Sidewinder. That's like apples to oranges.

Have to compare like machine to like machine.

Technically yes it will for sure be different feel but did you know that the exact same Valving is in the exact same shocks whether on a 600 cat or a Sidewinder if the same style shock. Qs3rs on Windèr,Viper and all the Cats are identical as are the SE shocks and the base shocks. Track length and model changes the Valving. That’s it.

 

[hellflyer]

My viper was turboed and I think heavier in the front end. Riden other sidewinder when I had my viper and handled very similar but this thing doesn’t , it’s better! I just rode a bunch of single track stuff portaging from lake to lake on ungroomed junk and it’s great.

 

[STAIN]

I have put @75 miles on 2 different 2020 T-Cats, one with I-act and one without. Rode them back to back with my 2017 RTX. They are flatter for sure. It was the first thing I noticed. Is it the lower ride height or the front end geometry? I don't know but there is a difference. It is very hard to get an inside ski to lift on those sleds. The front end was more "plush" also, probably because of the better shocks. Very nice handling machines.

 

[cannondale27]

I have put @75 miles on 2 different 2020 T-Cats, one with I-act and one without. Rode them back to back with my 2017 RTX. They are flatter for sure. It was the first thing I noticed. Is it the lower ride height or the front end geometry? I don't know but there is a difference. It is very hard to get an inside ski to lift on those sleds. The front end was more "plush" also, probably because of the better shocks. Very nice handling machines.

If you put a 1"track and lowered it with Thundercat springs on your sled it would be flat handling too. Lack of traction is the big one though.

 

[STAIN]

We will find out. Both machines will be getting bigger tracks.

 

[KnappAttack]

Lower ride height will always corner flatter.


That is the reason I question Cat going to a 1.5” taller spindle and saying it changes the roll center. Yep, it changes and raises the roll center, but raised the center of gravity at the same time. If the stance is not widened, how does it change anything and make it handle flatter? IT DOESNT!

Lowering a machine with SRX or THUNDERCAT springs will do more to make it handle flatter, adding taller spindles will make it trippier and more prone to lift a ski if you don’t lower it with springs to compensate. Pretty much common sense.

So just adding taller spindles will not make it handle flatter. Something else has to be to compensated for the added ride height. Is it shorter springs or what? Reduced spring pressure?

 

[JayM]

I had Elka Dual springs put on my SE shocks, we lowered the ride height as a result and it corners very flat, I get zero ski lift. With better shocks it would be even better.

 

[putz21]

I just got back from a 585 mile weekend trip and man, do I love this sled! All I can say is my sled handles amazing. I was riding with two Ski-doo 900t's and two 800's. My sled was on rails all weekend long and was flat! When the trails get rough, you can just pound through the bumps and feel in total control. I was chuckling watching the doo's tip a lot around the corners too.

I do have dual-rate springs on my front shocks as well as my center rear. I actually just put new Elka dual-rate springs on my center rear this weekend, and what a difference that made in the overall ride comfort and handling. I have my fronts set to where the A-Arms are flat when I am sitting on my sled. Running rear torsion spring at 2 as I am 225 with gear. Overall, I am very happy with my sled.

 

[JayM]

What do you have your rear track shock set at for hi/low speed compression and then the rebound do you know?