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2020 Front end

Richard Hodgins said:
You are the only one that says they went backwards and handling got worse! I have not ridden one, but everyone else that has seems to say the opposite. Better turn in, flatter cornering, no ski lift. The new doo front end is similar (raised the front) and results are the same.
The 19 geometry isn't any different than previous models...
The sno cross race sleds had this mod before and it was an improvement too.
Click to expand...
Well I do shocks so I hear the complaints. I also don’t sno cross a trail sled. Two totally different disciplines. I stand by no handling improvement based on riding and observing.
 

Richard Hodgins said:
You are the only one that says they went backwards and handling got worse! I have not ridden one, but everyone else that has seems to say the opposite. Better turn in, flatter cornering, no ski lift. The new doo front end is similar (raised the front) and results are the same.
The 19 geometry isn't any different than previous models...
The sno cross race sleds had this mod before and it was an improvement too.

Also read the previous post. I did not say that except vs a 2019 srx.
Click to expand...
 
Oh and My Doo 850 buddy ditched the stock front shocks for Exits in two rides to lower his front. Why? Because he trail rides. Fast.
 
I am not doubting your prowess/knowledge @cannondale27 as I know you work on shocks. I just find it strange that all the mags and anyone that has ridden has said the opposite. People that have upgraded older sleds say the same thing, that they improved the front end.
I am even more confused now on whether to do this update! lol
My 19 is pretty dialed in but like anyone, flatter handling and more turn in would be great! I have all next to no preload on ski springs too. Maybe just changing springs to SRX/TCAT would also make improvements.

I think the 1 inch track is a joke. At least the 21 tcats will get the 1.25 now.
 
Richard Hodgins said:
I am not doubting your prowess/knowledge @cannondale27 as I know you work on shocks. I just find it strange that all the mags and anyone that has ridden has said the opposite. People that have upgraded older sleds say the same thing, that they improved the front end.
I am even more confused now on whether to do this update! lol
My 19 is pretty dialed in but like anyone, flatter handling and more turn in would be great! I have all next to no preload on ski springs too. Maybe just changing springs to SRX/TCAT would also make improvements.

I think the 1 inch track is a joke. At least the 21 tcats will get the 1.25 now.
Click to expand...
Just change the springs and adjust shocks and go find a 2020. Thank me after.
 
Richard Hodgins said:
You are the only one that says they went backwards and handling got worse! I have not ridden one, but everyone else that has seems to say the opposite. Better turn in, flatter cornering, no ski lift. The new doo front end is similar (raised the front) and results are the same.
The 19 geometry isn't any different than previous models...
The sno cross race sleds had this mod before and it was an improvement too.
Click to expand...


Doo added 10mm of front travel is all, they also went to over 49.6" of width to the front to compensate. I told my Doo buddy all along that it wasn't going to be a "BIG THING" or change from what he already had, just a change to get the masses to believe a "big change" was made. Sure enough, he got all last Friday to Demo the new sled and it wasn't much if any different at all than his old 850. They do this stuff all the time to market and sell sleds. Just make it sound good and people will trade in and buy. The dealer sent it out with the skis in the narrower position because they can't legally sell it with the skis in the "wide position". Hence it was actually tippier than his old sled! Asked him if he was thinking of buying and he didn't think is was any big change. His kid who is a real sled head, said our winders handle just soo much better than the Doos. He actually owns a Viper himself but has owned them all at one point or another. He came off a Polaris Rush for his last sled. He was working hard to keep up with myself and and and another winder in our group, and he could see we weren't working hard at all. He had all he could do to keep the skis on the ground not roll it over! He really didn't think much of the new 850 Doo!

If they don't seem to make changes every season, how will the sleds sell and people trade in? Smoke & mirrors, and the magazines promote it because that's how their bread is buttered. Just the other day I saw an "ADVERTORIAL" to the new 850. Everything the marketing spinners promote in their press releases!


Hey, at least they called it an ADVERTORIAL! Check it out. SO DRAMATICALLY alters the handling! NOT!!!

http://www.supertraxmag.com/feature...dramatically-alter-g4-ride-and-handling/n3945


.
 
Last edited:
The best cat/Yamaha front end is on the 2019,20 6000r xc. Guess what. It’s wider. If SE or LE Windèr or Viper the front shocks can be lengthened by removing internal spacer to fit this front end.
 
I realize that this thread started out discussing the changes/improvements made to the 2020 model front ends but since it's recently steered towards flat handling I thought that I'd chime in with a few thoughts.

I totally agree with what KnappAttack just commented on concerning Ski Doo's "improved" front end on some of their 2021 models. I talked to a friend who was riding with Mike's buddy last Friday who had the new demo 850 model and he pretty much echoed Mike's comments about the new Ski Doo front end.

Back in 2017 when I started building my SideWinder I was able to pick up a Z-Broz 45" wide stance kit from someone I know that had a spare kit available. This kit consists of wider stance A-Arms along with longer tie rods for the steering. With a set of Custom Axis shocks bolted on to the sled this has become the absolute flattest cornering sled that I've ever driven. Anyone who's ever driven my sled has made similar comments.

When Yamaha first introduced the Apex models back in 2006 Mountain Performance made some 45" stance A-arm kits for them, and I installed their kit on my Apex and it really improved the handling and flat cornering abilities of that sled. Their kits for the Apex's are still sought after by the Apex fans. Mountain Performance has gone by the way side but I thought that I heard of a Canadian based shop that was making them again.

Now the bad news for us SW fans....Z-Broz discontinued making this 45" wide stance kit a few years ago due to lack of demand. Their intended market for the kits were for Hill Climb and Hill Cross racers. I believe that the 45" center to center of the ski stance is also too wide to be considered legal on most trail systems. A 48" stance to the outside of the skis is considered the legal norm for trails in most states/provinces, and that's what the OEM's have to deal with to sell a legal sled that complies with the regulations. With the 45" wide stance kit this brings the outside stance of my sleds to about 52" using the SLP MoHawk skis that I've got on the sled.

I was able to find a used Z-Broz 45" wide stance kit last summer on a web site that I installed on my wife's 2018 SW. After her first ride this season she's already commented on how the handling has improved and doesn't show any signs of unwanted ski lift in the corners. She's not a real active rider and hardly ever leans into a corner. She just sits upright and points the sled into the corner. I followed her on a recent ride and she looked a lot more comfortable going deeper into the corners at a greater speed than I've ever seen her do before.

I'm pretty sure that 45" is the maximum allowable ski stance used in the Soo 500 Enduro race where the highest cornering speeds along with flat cornering are two traits that every racer is looking for. Here's an interesting link to an article about a sled that the Arctic Cat race dept. built a few years ago for the Soo 500: http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Up-Close-2015-Soo-500-Winning-Arctic-Cat-ZR6000R

I'd like to ride a 2020 SW with the new front end so I could directly compare how it handles/corners to my sled with the wider stance.

Later this spring I plan on talking to an aftermarket company that I've dealt with for years about the possibility of them building a 45" stance kit for the SW/Viper models and will post any news if they are interested or not. Since the stance is too wide to comply with the current trail regulations I suspect that they might not want to go down that road.

I wanted to share this info for anyone that's interested in what I've found to be the flattest cornering set up that I've found for the SideWinders. There's got to be some of the Z-Broz kits still out there if anyone would want to consider one. Keep checking different websites like I did and you might be able to find one. Forty Five is where it's at in my book.

upload_2020-2-27_15-6-15.png
 
Last edited:
KnappAttack said:
Doo added 10mm of front travel is all, they also went to over 49.6" of width to the front to compensate. I told my Doo buddy all along that it wasn't going to be a "BIG THING" or change from what he already had, just a change to get the masses to believe a "big change" was made. Sure enough, he got all last Friday to Demo the new sled and it wasn't much if any different at all than his old 850. They do this stuff all the time to market and sell sleds. Just make it sound good and people will trade in and buy. The dealer sent it out with the skis in the narrower position because they can't legally sell it with the skis in the "wide position". Hence it was actually tippier than his old sled! Asked him if he was thinking of buying and he didn't think is was any big change. His kid who is a real sled head, said our winders handle just soo much better than the Doos. He actually owns a Viper himself but has owned them all at one point or another. He came off a Polaris Rush for his last sled. He was working hard to keep up with myself and and and another winder in our group, and he could see we weren't working hard at all. He had all he could do to keep the skis on the ground not roll it over! He really didn't think much of the new 850 Doo!

If they don't seem to make changes every season, how will the sleds sell and people trade in? Smoke & mirrors, and the magazines promote it because that's how their bread is buttered. Just the other day I saw an "ADVERTORIAL" to the new 850. Everything the marketing spinners promote in their press releases!


Hey, at least they called it an ADVERTORIAL! Check it out. SO DRAMATICALLY alters the handling! NOT!!!

http://www.supertraxmag.com/feature...dramatically-alter-g4-ride-and-handling/n3945


.
Click to expand...
Your comment should be posted under that article on skidootrax, but the Lester gang doesn't like getting called out. A few years ago I was one of the first to call them out under a Doo article of course, and they actually made mention of it in a following article.
It's nauseating that we can't get unbiased reporting.
I wish Rockerdan would start an online review of sleds given that he isn't biased to any brand, and is also an excellent writer!
 
VX1R said:
I realize that this thread started out discussing the changes/improvements made to the 2020 model front ends but since it's recently steered towards flat handling I thought that I'd chime in with a few thoughts.

I totally agree with what KnappAttack just commented on concerning Ski Doo's "improved" front end on some of their 2021 models. I talked to a friend who was riding with Mike's buddy last Friday who had the new demo 850 model and he pretty much echoed Mike's comments about the new Ski Doo front end.

Back in 2017 when I started building my SideWinder I was able to pick up a Z-Broz 45" wide stance kit from someone I know that had a spare kit available. This kit consists of wider stance A-Arms along with longer tie rods for the steering. With a set of Custom Axis shocks bolted on to the sled this has become the absolute flattest cornering sled that I've ever driven. Anyone who's ever driven my sled has made similar comments.

When Yamaha first introduced the Apex models back in 2006 Mountain Performance made some 45" stance A-arm kits for them, and I installed their kit on my Apex and it really improved the handling and flat cornering abilities of that sled. Their kits for the Apex's are still sought after by the Apex fans. Mountain Performance has gone by the way side but I thought that I heard of a Canadian based shop that was making them again.

Now the bad news for us SW fans....Z-Broz discontinued making this 45" wide stance kit a few years ago due to lack of demand. Their intended market for the kits were for Hill Climb and Hill Cross racers. I believe that the 45" center to center of the ski stance is also too wide to be considered legal on most trail systems. A 48" stance to the outside of the skis is considered the legal norm for trails in most states/provinces, and that's what the OEM's have to deal with to sell a legal sled that complies with the regulations. With the 45" wide stance kit this brings the outside stance of my sleds to about 52" using the SLP MoHawk skis that I've got on the sled.

I was able to find a used Z-Broz 45" wide stance kit last summer on a web site that I installed on my wife's 2018 SW. After her first ride this season she's already commented on how the handling has improved and doesn't show any signs of unwanted ski lift in the corners. She's not a real active rider and hardly ever leans into a corner. She just sits upright and points the sled into the corner. I followed her on a recent ride and she looked a lot more comfortable going deeper into the corners at a greater speed than I've ever seen her do before.

I'm pretty sure that 45" is the maximum allowable ski stance used in the Soo 500 Enduro race where the highest cornering speeds along with flat cornering are two traits that every racer is looking for. Here's an interesting link to an article about a sled that the Arctic Cat race dept. built a few years ago for the Soo 500: http://www.arcticinsider.com/Article/Up-Close-2015-Soo-500-Winning-Arctic-Cat-ZR6000R

I'd like to ride a 2020 SW with the new front end so I could directly compare how it handles/corners to my sled with the wider stance.

Later this spring I plan on talking to an aftermarket company that I've dealt with for years about the possibility of them building a 45" stance kit for the SW/Viper models and will post any news if they are interested or not. Since the stance is too wide to comply with the current trail regulations I suspect that they might not want to go down that road.

I wanted to share this info for anyone that's interested in what I've found to be the flattest cornering set up that I've found for the SideWinders. There's got to be some of the Z-Broz kits still out there if anyone would want to consider one. Keep checking different websites like I did and you might be able to find one.

View attachment 153502
Click to expand...
Beauty pics! Nice job on mixing all the colors.(Arctic cat needs someone like you!)
 
People on the cat forums over on HCS are having a fit saying the 2020 front end is the real deal, huge difference and people want to trade their 2019s in on 20s to get this improved handling. Said the geometry is better on spindle not just added height.
I really want to try one myself to see now!
 
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