Hi guys!
I am joining the manual boost controller club and I therefor wonder what AFR I can run on my Nytro.
I guess the 180kit needs to run richer then the 240?
Everybody sais that it can handle 190-200hp and still be safe.
MCX press offers a remap of the MCX ecu that is suppost to raise the hp numbers to 190+ hp.
Dimebag gave me an innovative AFR gauge for christmas so I am now installing it together with a grimmspeed manual controller.
What is the max boost you can run on a stock engine?
Even if you have an AFR gauge you still have to pay attention to your boost level? right? Or is it OK just to pay attention to the AFR?
Dimebag if you are reading this, I am not questioning your AFR statements, you know the OEM man, I want to make sure that my sled is still a Yamaha.
All opinions appreciated!
I am joining the manual boost controller club and I therefor wonder what AFR I can run on my Nytro.
I guess the 180kit needs to run richer then the 240?
Everybody sais that it can handle 190-200hp and still be safe.
MCX press offers a remap of the MCX ecu that is suppost to raise the hp numbers to 190+ hp.
Dimebag gave me an innovative AFR gauge for christmas so I am now installing it together with a grimmspeed manual controller.
What is the max boost you can run on a stock engine?
Even if you have an AFR gauge you still have to pay attention to your boost level? right? Or is it OK just to pay attention to the AFR?
Dimebag if you are reading this, I am not questioning your AFR statements, you know the OEM man, I want to make sure that my sled is still a Yamaha.
All opinions appreciated!
Dimebag
TY 4 Stroke God
OEM man, you should know i read everything over here.
Check this thread for some really good afr explanations;
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php? ... hlight=afr
Check this thread for some really good afr explanations;
http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php? ... hlight=afr
Yes I know you do, although the AFR talk was mostly general and not specifically for the MCX 180.
Is the upper limit 12 or 12.5 for the 180?
The upper limit must be safe.
.Is the upper limit 12 or 12.5 for the 180?
The upper limit must be safe
.
rxrider
Jan-Ove Pedersen
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2003
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- 7,355
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- Lakselv - 70N & 25E
- Country
- Norway
- Snowmobile
- 2014 Phazer XTX, 2013 Phazer RTX, 2008 Apex RTX, 2007 Warrior, 2006 Attak
Every turbo or SC application needs to run the same fueling to work properly/safely.
The type of kit does not matter, the amount of boost you run does.
Here's the rule of thumb.
Idle: 14.0-14.5
Engagement: 13.5
0 lbs boost: 13.0
5 lbs boost: 12.5
10 lbs and over: 11.8-12.0
The type of kit does not matter, the amount of boost you run does.
Here's the rule of thumb.
Idle: 14.0-14.5
Engagement: 13.5
0 lbs boost: 13.0
5 lbs boost: 12.5
10 lbs and over: 11.8-12.0
OK I see.. interesting.
So logically the AFR should be lower the more boost you run.
Lets say that you were boosting at 7psi and had 12.5 in AFR. If you then got a new mapping/jets (more fuel and a richer mixture) wouldnt the AFR go down?
Or? Then you would have to increase the boost to get the AFR higher again right?
And then you would be pushing the limits of the engine (head gasket/head bolts/rods?) when thinking of boost pressure?
If you overboost, what is normally the first thing to happen?
-rod bearing/rod through crank?
-headgasket/headbolts
-normal seizing?
What are you most afraid of?
Engine seizing due to lean mixture/high AFR?
Rod bearing head gasket due to overboosting?
Dude, I`m sorry for behaving like a total jerk but I have a lot of questions showing up in my head and its better to ask to much then to little.
Is there a rule of thumb on how much boost the 180kit can handle?
So logically the AFR should be lower the more boost you run.
Lets say that you were boosting at 7psi and had 12.5 in AFR. If you then got a new mapping/jets (more fuel and a richer mixture) wouldnt the AFR go down?
Or? Then you would have to increase the boost to get the AFR higher again right?
And then you would be pushing the limits of the engine (head gasket/head bolts/rods?) when thinking of boost pressure?
If you overboost, what is normally the first thing to happen?
-rod bearing/rod through crank?
-headgasket/headbolts
-normal seizing?
What are you most afraid of?
Engine seizing due to lean mixture/high AFR?
Rod bearing head gasket due to overboosting?
Dude, I`m sorry for behaving like a total jerk but I have a lot of questions showing up in my head and its better to ask to much then to little.
Is there a rule of thumb on how much boost the 180kit can handle?
LSXM3
Expert
theoretically the only limiting factor if all else is compensated for (IE.., proper a/f ratio, fuel volume, timing, detonation control) would be the volumetric efficiency of the engine/ mechanical limit of its internal parts. I have personally pushed my almost bone stock 5.3l gm LS motor to 1100hp on the dyno with the only change done to it being the ring gap was filed a lil looser and the head gaskets where swapped out for high quality MLS gaskets, other than that it was stock rods/pistons/bolts/intake/etc... I did have a huge fuel system, and big injectors but all run off a stock ecu(GM ECU's rock) just my 2c's
As far as the nytro is concerned the limiting factor will be the stock fuel system, Ricky can chime in here as i have 0 experience tuning a nytro but i believe the most the factory fuel system can handle is 9psi
"So logically the AFR should be lower the more boost you run." -To a Point at anything lower than 10.1:1 you will be doing yourself no good on gasoline as it wont help to be that rich
As far as the nytro is concerned the limiting factor will be the stock fuel system, Ricky can chime in here as i have 0 experience tuning a nytro but i believe the most the factory fuel system can handle is 9psi
"So logically the AFR should be lower the more boost you run." -To a Point at anything lower than 10.1:1 you will be doing yourself no good on gasoline as it wont help to be that rich
Dimebag
TY 4 Stroke God
Anybody had their mcx ecu reprogrammed for 190+?
Can you confirm which boost levels/ afr values you are seeing?
And at what elevation?
Can you confirm which boost levels/ afr values you are seeing?
And at what elevation?
Interesting reading LSXM3, thanks for replying.
Dimebag, agree, would be cool to know what values the "stock" upgraders are seeing.
Lying in bed last night I kept thinking about this and I came up with some theories that I would like to get confirmed or "busted" , hehe.
I do lack general knowledge of many things for example air, but I guess one can always read about this.
When you add an intercooler you do this to lower the air temperature on the air that is entering the engine, hence making the air more "powerful" .
But then again on a warm day, you would have to increase the boost level to run at right pressure since the air is less "powerful" that day.
So, I know it would be wrong but theoretically you could just throw the intercooler in the garbage and increase boost level and be good to go.
That said I do know that lower air temps help prevent detonation.
?
Like, if you run at 4PSI at sea level and then run 7PSI at higher altitude, you will actually increase the air-volume that is entering the engine (no #*$&@ Sherlock) but still have the same HP since the air is less "powerful" at higher altitudes.
If you dont see where I am going, I am thinking this:
You have drastically increased the air volume that is entering the engine which means that the compression stroke compresses much more air hence creating more stress on internal engine parts (rods,piston and head gasket).
So, you are stressing the engine more then at sealevel but still making the same HP, well that sucks!! hehe.
Or, am I completely misunderstanding everything, air is thinner the higher up you get which means that you would have to have more of it the higher up you get.
Will thinner air at higher pressure be the same as thick air at lower pressure when thinking of the amount of air that is actually being compressed in the engine. Like, the pressure needed to compress the mixture would be the same at sealevel @4psi as at high altitude @7PSI??
Since you have to compress the air it should mean that you are creating a greater pressure inside the cylinder which means that as stated above you are stressing engine parts without gaining HP.
Yesterday when lying in bed I somehow thought:
With the boost pressure gauge you monitor what you do to the engine at the intake and compression stroke.
With the AFR gauge you monitor what the power and exhaust stroke are doing.
But then again, the highest pressure ever being created inside an engine will always be at the power stroke, right?
I thought that my conclusion was that you could be stressing the engine with too much boost due to very high altitude but still running OK AFR.
But this sounds stupid, or is it some sort of reality in this?
I guess it boils down to the following question:
Can I mainly focus on the AFR or do I have to pay attention to the boost level because of the fact that there is infact a fraction of truth in what I am believing/thinking or do I need to pay attention to the boost gauge for the real reason??
Dude I`m confused.. I guess I`m complicating this more then necessary?
Is 9 PSI the highest boost this engine can handle?
At 12.5 in AFR?
If I were to run at 9 PSI at my elevation the AFR would be too lean.
Should I feel safe as long as the AFR is lower then 12.5 since I know that my altitudes will never let me run more then about 7 - 7,5 PSI.
Anyone?
Dimebag, agree, would be cool to know what values the "stock" upgraders are seeing
.Lying in bed last night I kept thinking about this and I came up with some theories that I would like to get confirmed or "busted" , hehe.
I do lack general knowledge of many things for example air, but I guess one can always read about this.
When you add an intercooler you do this to lower the air temperature on the air that is entering the engine, hence making the air more "powerful" .
But then again on a warm day, you would have to increase the boost level to run at right pressure since the air is less "powerful" that day.
So, I know it would be wrong but theoretically you could just throw the intercooler in the garbage and increase boost level and be good to go.
That said I do know that lower air temps help prevent detonation.
?
Like, if you run at 4PSI at sea level and then run 7PSI at higher altitude, you will actually increase the air-volume that is entering the engine (no #*$&@ Sherlock) but still have the same HP since the air is less "powerful" at higher altitudes.
If you dont see where I am going, I am thinking this:
You have drastically increased the air volume that is entering the engine which means that the compression stroke compresses much more air hence creating more stress on internal engine parts (rods,piston and head gasket).
So, you are stressing the engine more then at sealevel but still making the same HP, well that sucks!! hehe.
Or, am I completely misunderstanding everything, air is thinner the higher up you get which means that you would have to have more of it the higher up you get.
Will thinner air at higher pressure be the same as thick air at lower pressure when thinking of the amount of air that is actually being compressed in the engine. Like, the pressure needed to compress the mixture would be the same at sealevel @4psi as at high altitude @7PSI??
Since you have to compress the air it should mean that you are creating a greater pressure inside the cylinder which means that as stated above you are stressing engine parts without gaining HP.
Yesterday when lying in bed I somehow thought:
With the boost pressure gauge you monitor what you do to the engine at the intake and compression stroke.
With the AFR gauge you monitor what the power and exhaust stroke are doing.
But then again, the highest pressure ever being created inside an engine will always be at the power stroke, right?
I thought that my conclusion was that you could be stressing the engine with too much boost due to very high altitude but still running OK AFR.
But this sounds stupid, or is it some sort of reality in this?
I guess it boils down to the following question:
Can I mainly focus on the AFR or do I have to pay attention to the boost level because of the fact that there is infact a fraction of truth in what I am believing/thinking or do I need to pay attention to the boost gauge for the real reason??
Dude I`m confused.. I guess I`m complicating this more then necessary?
Is 9 PSI the highest boost this engine can handle?
At 12.5 in AFR?
If I were to run at 9 PSI at my elevation the AFR would be too lean.
Should I feel safe as long as the AFR is lower then 12.5 since I know that my altitudes will never let me run more then about 7 - 7,5 PSI.
Anyone?
Dimebag
TY 4 Stroke God
4 psi at sealevel equals about 7 psi at elevation, which means that you have the exact same pressure inside your engine at both times.
IMO there is almost no point in using a boost gauge in the elevations we ride in.
We would be better off with a warning light or something indicating that we were running too lean. (Like a AFR gauge).
The reason I say this is because we know for sure that the stock fuel system can't compensate for more than 9 psi boost at the elevations we ride in. Which again means that on WOT you have the same amount of fuel entering the combustion chamber no matter if you run 7 or 10 psi of boost.
The only difference is that with 10 psi boost you will have a much higher AFR value, meaning you are now on the lean side.
Decrease the boost pressure, and the AFR value will drop.
This is my understanding, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
IMO there is almost no point in using a boost gauge in the elevations we ride in.
We would be better off with a warning light or something indicating that we were running too lean. (Like a AFR gauge).
The reason I say this is because we know for sure that the stock fuel system can't compensate for more than 9 psi boost at the elevations we ride in. Which again means that on WOT you have the same amount of fuel entering the combustion chamber no matter if you run 7 or 10 psi of boost.
The only difference is that with 10 psi boost you will have a much higher AFR value, meaning you are now on the lean side.
Decrease the boost pressure, and the AFR value will drop.
This is my understanding, but please correct me if I'm wrong.
LSXM3
Expert
kimoajaj said:Interesting reading LSXM3, thanks for replying.
Dimebag, agree, would be cool to know what values the "stock" upgraders are seeing
Lying in bed last night I kept thinking about this and I came up with some theories that I would like to get confirmed or "busted" , hehe.
I do lack general knowledge of many things for example air, but I guess one can always read about this.
When you add an intercooler you do this to lower the air temperature on the air that is entering the engine, hence making the air more "powerful" .
But then again on a warm day, you would have to increase the boost level to run at right pressure since the air is less "powerful" that day.
So, I know it would be wrong but theoretically you could just throw the intercooler in the garbage and increase boost level and be good to go.
That said I do know that lower air temps help prevent detonation.
?
Like, if you run at 4PSI at sea level and then run 7PSI at higher altitude, you will actually increase the air-volume that is entering the engine (no poop Sherlock) but still have the same HP since the air is less "powerful" at higher altitudes.
If you dont see where I am going, I am thinking this:
You have drastically increased the air volume that is entering the engine which means that the compression stroke compresses much more air hence creating more stress on internal engine parts (rods,piston and head gasket).
So, you are stressing the engine more then at sealevel but still making the same HP, well that sucks!! hehe.
Or, am I completely misunderstanding everything, air is thinner the higher up you get which means that you would have to have more of it the higher up you get.
Will thinner air at higher pressure be the same as thick air at lower pressure when thinking of the amount of air that is actually being compressed in the engine. Like, the pressure needed to compress the mixture would be the same at sealevel @4psi as at high altitude @7PSI??
Since you have to compress the air it should mean that you are creating a greater pressure inside the cylinder which means that as stated above you are stressing engine parts without gaining HP.
Yesterday when lying in bed I somehow thought:
With the boost pressure gauge you monitor what you do to the engine at the intake and compression stroke.
With the AFR gauge you monitor what the power and exhaust stroke are doing.
But then again, the highest pressure ever being created inside an engine will always be at the power stroke, right?
I thought that my conclusion was that you could be stressing the engine with too much boost due to very high altitude but still running OK AFR.
But this sounds stupid, or is it some sort of reality in this?
I guess it boils down to the following question:
Can I mainly focus on the AFR or do I have to pay attention to the boost level because of the fact that there is infact a fraction of truth in what I am believing/thinking or do I need to pay attention to the boost gauge for the real reason??
Dude I`m confused.. I guess I`m complicating this more then necessary?
Is 9 PSI the highest boost this engine can handle?
At 12.5 in AFR?
If I were to run at 9 PSI at my elevation the AFR would be too lean.
Should I feel safe as long as the AFR is lower then 12.5 since I know that my altitudes will never let me run more then about 7 - 7,5 PSI.
Anyone?
Tmw when im on my laptop and not on my phone i will answer these questions for you
Dimebag said:
7lbs boost, 11.5-11.8 wot
1000 ft
rxrider
Jan-Ove Pedersen
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2003
- Messages
- 7,355
- Age
- 60
- Location
- Lakselv - 70N & 25E
- Country
- Norway
- Snowmobile
- 2014 Phazer XTX, 2013 Phazer RTX, 2008 Apex RTX, 2007 Warrior, 2006 Attak
Yes
Yes (not recommended, I would tune the fuel map)
Yes
If you detonate.... all of them may happen at once.
Detonation causing what you mention.
Engine will more likely detonate from too lean mixture than it will size from it.
Rod bearings and head gasket may blow due to detonation caused by overboosting and not enough octane fuel/to high compression or a mix of those.
We have a Boost Calculator for the 4 cyl engine which is accurate and very usable, can't remember if we have one for the 3 cyl engine.
Yes (not recommended, I would tune the fuel map)
Yes
If you detonate.... all of them may happen at once.
Detonation causing what you mention.
Engine will more likely detonate from too lean mixture than it will size from it.
Rod bearings and head gasket may blow due to detonation caused by overboosting and not enough octane fuel/to high compression or a mix of those.
We have a Boost Calculator for the 4 cyl engine which is accurate and very usable, can't remember if we have one for the 3 cyl engine.
Erik Marklund say 12.5 is perfect on the nytro engine at wot with the 180/190 kit. Done deal. Staying up to this number and your safe.
At 1200-1500meters at the top of where i ride i will see 0.6bar boost and around 12.5 afr. One run it is 11.2 next 12.7. It is not that stable.
I would think that Erik knows what he is doing and if he is comfortable to increase the boost on these kits it have to be within a safe margin
At 1200-1500meters at the top of where i ride i will see 0.6bar boost and around 12.5 afr. One run it is 11.2 next 12.7. It is not that stable.
I would think that Erik knows what he is doing and if he is comfortable to increase the boost on these kits it have to be within a safe margin
Dimebag
TY 4 Stroke God
Mcx190 boost numbers;
Sealevel - 0.45
500m - 0.5
1000m - 0.55
1500m - 0.6
This means we should never see anything higher than 0.6 at our elevation.
For Mcx180 the numbers are the same minus 0.05 bar's.
Sealevel - 0.45
500m - 0.5
1000m - 0.55
1500m - 0.6
This means we should never see anything higher than 0.6 at our elevation.
For Mcx180 the numbers are the same minus 0.05 bar's.
