Antifreeze testing

[ReX]

I decided to skim through some of the Phazer posts yesterday and came across this one:

http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?p=303976&highlight=#303976

Cap'tAttack says:

Yamaha has put in a new type of antifreeze in their sleds. You need a spectrograph type of antifreeze tester to test it properly. Using an old ball type tester will register 100 % glycol. If you added water , it will not be up to par.

Has anyone heard this?

It doesn't make any sense to me since ethylene glycol has a high density compared to water and the mixture of water to ethylene glycol directly drives both the density and freezing point. The density is what the standard testers measure. I'm not aware of any antifreeze with a higher density than ethylene glycol (higher density would artificially provide a higher freezing point measurement).

If Yamaha switched to propylene glycol the tester wouldn't work. It would measure almost no protection all the time (not 100%).

 

[craze1cars]

I don't know about Phazer, but it should be easy to figure out the answer...anyone with a Phazer owner's manual or shop manual can read the capacities/spec section, and it will specify what kind of coolant Yamaha recommends for it.

My 07 Attak manual specifies ethylene glycol mixed 60/40...the plain 'ol green stuff that's been around for 50+ years.

 

[Bigger Hammer]

I used a tester with a floating needle in it on mine, it showed 100%

 

[Len Todd]

I checked Yamaha's On-line Operator Manaul Site. Thought I could look up the spec. But, the 2007 Snowmobile Operator Manauals are not posted yet???

 

[Cap'tAttack]

I am sorry I didn't elaborate on the antifreeze issue. I am a Yamaha tech and attended a school on the new Phazer a week ago. The service rep there told us that the new sleds come with propylene glycol in them from the factory. Thus the need for a refractometer tester. He also said that any ball type testers would read 100 % glycol. Regardless of whether they would read anything at all, the point is you need a different tester.
Regarding the service manuals, I have not checked out what the specs say, and there was no mention of what the manual says regarding which type of antifreeze the machines contain.. All I know at the moment is what we were told at the service school. I appologize for the confusion.

 

[RedRX1]

What is the advantage of this new antifreeze... Better heat transfer??

 

[ReX]

I used a tester with a floating needle in it on mine, it showed 100%

I have a reasonable quality Prestone tester that measures the density of the coolant with a semi-floating needle. When I carefully mix Prestone to an exact mixture my tester reads a couple of degrees conservative (too high a freezing temp).

With my 05 RX-1 it read off the scale. I drained coolant and added distilled water until it read a little over 50/50 and safe to about -40°C.

My buddies 06 Apex's tested the same way (off the scale) and again we added distilled water to bring it down to close to 50/50.

We did experience -40°C conditions over night with the sleds parked outside and never had any problems.

We never had any overheating problems after diluting it either.

I for one am completely at a loss to explain why our sleds arrived with so much antifreeze in them and it sounds like the 07's were also shipped this way. Yamaha is only causing problems and costing money for themselves when they ship their sleds with too much antifreeze.

Are the bikes and ATVs also shipped with high antifreeze concentrations?

 

[ReX]

I am sorry I didn't elaborate on the antifreeze issue. I am a Yamaha tech and attended a school on the new Phazer a week ago. The service rep there told us that the new sleds come with propylene glycol in them from the factory. Thus the need for a refractometer tester. He also said that any ball type testers would read 100 % glycol. Regardless of whether they would read anything at all, the point is you need a different tester.
Regarding the service manuals, I have not checked out what the specs say, and there was no mention of what the manual says regarding which type of antifreeze the machines contain.. All I know at the moment is what we were told at the service school. I appologize for the confusion.

I just checked my owners manual for the 07 RTX. For coolant it states:

High quality ethylene glycol antifreeze containing corrosion inhibitors.
Antifreeze and water mixing ratio:
60:40
Total amount:
6.0L (5.28 Imp qt, 6.34 US qt)

Propylene glycol has a lower density or specific gravity so a standard density or specific gravity based antifreeze tester should read a low antifreeze concentration. If these testers are reading 100%, either there is too much ethylene glycol (antifreeze) or Yamaha is using some something that is higher in density (I haven't heard of any coolant like this).

 

[ReX]

One more thing I just thought of.

The standard colors for ethylene glycol antifreeze are green or yellow.

The standard color for propylene glycol is usually pink.

Extended life antifreeze can be based on either ethylene glycol or propylene glycol (or a mixture) and the standard color is orange.

What color is the antifreeze in the 07s?

 

[MrSled]

The floater type meter is not accurate. You need a special tool and I know Yamaha's mix is 60/40. Many dealers have challenged this and with a refractometer you will see its correct with in a few small %.

 

[Oak Hill]

A refractometer is the only true way to check any coolant and has been for many years.

 

[ReX]

The floater type meter is not accurate. You need a special tool and I know Yamaha's mix is 60/40. Many dealers have challenged this and with a refractometer you will see its correct with in a few small %.

Sorry to disagree, but I'm convinced the antifreeze concentration in our particular 2005 and 2006 Yamaha's were much higher than 60/40. On all of them the coolant measured off the chart with my "Prestone professional antifreeze tester" - this is written on the side (it is a decent quality density based coolant tester).

I still have the roughly 3 liters of coolant I drained out of my 05 RX-1 sitting on a shelf in my garage. I topped my sled up with distilled water and tweaked it until my tester showed slightly more than a 50/50 mix (good for -40°C).

I rode this sled for two seasons and often parked it in extremely cold temperatures - some slightly below -40°C. We often got the sleds going at 6:00 AM and never had any problems with frozen coolant.

I'm not saying all sleds came with this much antifreeze in them, but mine must have been well over 60:40. If it wasn't and my tester had falsely shown I was safe after I diluted it, the coolant would have frozen during our Northern trips.

I've used that tester on every vehicle I own and if I mix up a batch of antifreeze in advance (as I typically do) and test it, the tester aligns within a few degrees to what the measured mix should be good for.

I agree a refractometer is generally a more accurate tool, but a decent quality density based antifreeze tester still works reasonably well for testing coolant.

 

[ReX]

What is the advantage of this new antifreeze... Better heat transfer??

The advantage to propylene glycol is it isn't toxic. It is actually used in some food manufacturing processes.

Thermal and viscosity properties are slightly better for ethylene glycol at cold temperatures but once up to engine operating temperature they are similar. You do need a little extra propylene to get the -40° protection so it doesn't quite perform as well as ethylene glycol.

The main disadvantage to propylene glycol is it costs quite a bit more.

Here is a document that contains lots of good information on antifreeze properties:

http://www.mrc-eng.com/Downloads/Brine%20Properties.pdf

I don't know if Yamaha is actually using propylene glycol in their 07 sleds but they might be.

 

[Sled Dog]

I have used the old style for years myself and never have had a problem ever. I think what Tom means is you have to a proper device to measure the new antifreeze. The old green stuff the old tester with the bulb on the top is good enough to get it close enough to what you need. Maybe yamaha is trying to be more enviromentally friendly by using the non toxic stuff. Maybe they will allow yamaha sleds in Yellowstone now.

 

[MrSled]

Rex, you can say what you want, I am only stating the facts that if you want to say its wrong you better use the correct tester if you going to accuse Yamaha of the wrong mix.