Grooming in Vermont with 08 VK Pro

[Jack_Shaft]

Another option would be to build something similar to the Extension Wings and Super Flaps that TT makes for the Trail Tenderizer. All you would need is 3-4 feet of comb with a steel frame on one side of your Trail Tenderizer to gain the added reach.

This is exactly what I was going to post, I have seen hydraulic side extension wings on large scale groomer drags, they just hinge down into place. You could do this exact thing with hinged side wings and locking pins, just manually move them up/down. Even just 2' per side should do the trick.

 

[air19]

Sounds like you guys want me to use a "batwing mower" instead of an offset hitch.

The batwing idea sounds pretty easy. TiddTech makes one foot extensions. I could start with that. I'll look around for some old comb from some of their superflaps that I haven't used much and maybe make a two footer. I still want to try the hitch at some point.

But yesterday the gooseneck hitch arrived. So I'm going to spend the day building that. Pictures will be up tomorrow after some test runs.

 

[bf]

Hello Everyone,

I just discovered this site, what a treasure trove! This is grooming season #13 for me, the first 10 with a VK540 and a 4ft TT, now a VK Pro with the same TT for setting track, and a YT knockoff compaction drag for the skate lane (we drove 600 miles to buy a YT drag, and they were out of stock....)
We have experienced most of the discussed problems with the VK Pro, have solved some, working on others. In general though, it is a very civilized way to spend grooming time, and fuel consumption is way down compared to the VK540.
My first question is this: with the equipment we now have, the drag does virtually all of the grooming except for setting a track, and the results are pretty decent. If we purchase a ginzu groomer or a G2, what will we gain, and what percentage of grooming time will we use it vs. just using the drag?
Thanks in advance for any comments, and boy is it great to know we are no longer operating in a total information vacuum when it comes to the VK Pro and trail grooming.

bf

 

[air19]

My first question is this: with the equipment we now have, the drag does virtually all of the grooming except for setting a track, and the results are pretty decent. If we purchase a ginzu groomer or a G2, what will we gain, and what percentage of grooming time will we use it vs. just using the drag?
bf

Welcome BF, I do all my grooming with three TiddTech implements - the 6 foot roller, a 4 foot tenderizer, and the small G2. Both the tenderizer and G2 have tracksetters.

A compaction drag does one thing very well - it levels out a trail. Depending on the length of your drag it may do a better job than the G2 or Ginzu. A good groomer usually does a couple of jobs. I'll talk about the G2 which I know from about 4 years of use.

The G2 has a couple of things going on up front before the snow is compacted. It has snow flaps that direct the snow toward the middle which is important because all groomers tend to push snow back to the outside. It then has two rows of cutting teeth that can level a trail and more importantly can chew through the top snow surface. Then there is the compaction bed and finally the comb pattern at the back to create the corduroy surface. Many drags also have the equivalent of the first two - snow flaps and cutting teeth. The differences may be subtle up front. On my small G2 there are about 60 cutting teeth that do a great job of breaking up the surface without producing the unwanted chunks that other drags produce. On the back end the G2 compaction bed and comb are very different than most compaction drags I have seen. The compaction bed is sloped for about 2 feet and does a great job of really pressing the snow down to the surface. The comb is a two part comb that has a very strong flex to it. The result is a strong comb pattern. There are times when I travel across hardback without the teeth engaged and the comb has enough down pressure to still create a visible corduroy pattern. With the G2 I might be able to create a harder surface, and the corduroy will certainly be more defined than a compaction drag.

Another big difference with the G2 compared to the tenderizer is tracksetting. With your tenderizer when you are trying to set track on a hard surface the only way to try and do this is to add weights to the pan. Most of the time this doesn't yield good results. The G2 has an actuator, struts, and is flexed into the snow. The actuator creates the equivalent of 250 lbs of pressure, without the weight.

Now start to think about your normal grooming conditions and how many passes you do with each implement to get the job done. I imagine you are going out with your compaction drag and leveling the trail and working in the new snow with the old to create a good finished surface. Then you grab the tenderizer and do another pass to set track. With the G2 I'm doing all of that in one pass and the track results will be better.

I would like to have a compaction drag in my grooming arsenal. I would probably use it once a week to re-level the trails. Nothing better. Then I would grab the G2 the rest of the time to produce my final product for the skiers.

It all depends on how good a grooming product you are trying to create. I groomed for years with a tenderizer and it produced good results when we had new snow. I think the real question for you is what are you trying to improve on. Lets talk about the snow conditions that are challenging for you and then see if a different type of groomer will help or not.

 

[air19]

Gooseneck hitch finally set up

All the parts of my gooseneck hitch are in place. The actual hitch is from TiddTech. The same folks that created the G2 groomer that I use. I'm their New England demonstration center so I get a lot of their gear to demo to other ski centers.

It took me most of the day to get it assembled and properly fitted on my VK Pro. I just had time to do a couple of test runs around my field, including getting stuck on purpose to see how easy it would be to get unstuck.

Like most TiddTech products this hitch is quite substantial. The parts weigh 60 lbs. in total, and it increases the tongue weight of the entire G2 groomer to 110 lbs.

On my quick run, I was definitely able to make some very tight turns. It takes a little getting used to when you see the groomer at such extreme angles. And I have to remember it's like a fifth wheel, actually tracking inside the VK Pro on any turn.

Now getting unstuck. Lets just hope it doesn't happen too often. The first time I tipped the VK Pro on purpose and I had a helper with me. I got the hitch stuck on the ball so that we couldn't get it unhitched. The two of us had to untip the VK. I'm going to have to learn the tricks to getting the ball unstuck. The second time I loosened a bolt so the clamp wasn't as tight on the ball and I was able to free the hitch, but lifting a 110 lb. tongue weight took some grunting. Once the hitch is off the snowmobile it's actually easier than normal to swing the G2 because of this longer pivot arm.

Time will tell if the added benefits of the easy steering and tighter cornering will outweigh the extreme weight handling required with this.

Here are some pictures.

 

[bf]

Thanks for the detailed grooming info. I suppose that I am trying to accomplish what most groomers (and skiers) want- as close to perfection as possible, with minimized effort. Basically, Pisten Bully results on a Yamaha budget.

So, I would hope to improve compaction, and general trail finish quality, while reducing the number of passes required. Certainly, an integral tracksetter would be an immediate improvement. You mentioned that you use a small G2 (4 ft?). What do you think about the VK Pro being able to handle a larger groomer? We very seldom have any trouble with our existing equipment as far as uphill work is concerned (fairly gentle hills), and it seems the obvious solution to achieving the required width with fewer passes. I would very much like to minimize switching implements too, but maybe this is unavoidable.

Re the compaction drag, I can't overstate how big an improvement it made to our trails- I hope you are able to add one to your collection.

Thanks for the ongoing input, it really is helpful.

 

[YETI]

air do you hit your head on the jack handle?

 

[air19]

So, I would hope to improve compaction, and general trail finish quality, while reducing the number of passes required. Certainly, an integral tracksetter would be an immediate improvement. You mentioned that you use a small G2 (4 ft?). What do you think about the VK Pro being able to handle a larger groomer? We very seldom have any trouble with our existing equipment as far as uphill work is concerned (fairly gentle hills), and it seems the obvious solution to achieving the required width with fewer passes. I would very much like to minimize switching implements too, but maybe this is unavoidable.

Re the compaction drag, I can't overstate how big an improvement it made to our trails- I hope you are able to add one to your collection.

bf - The VK Pro could pull the medium G2 which is 6 feet. However, I would recommend one big improvement to the VK for grooming - the second radiator up front. BIG difference in cooling capability. I would recommend this for anyone doing serious grooming. But it's about $600 for the parts and another $400 for the install. Try your grooming without it then read about my various steps to combat the cooling issues. Maybe you will be able to do something easy like removing the vent cover up front, before you have to take a big plunge like I eventually had to.

There are two very different uses of the G2 - when the teeth are up and you are just compacting new snow vs. when the teeth are down and you are trying to till like a Piston Bulley. When the teeth are up there is minimal difference between the 4 foot wide or 6 foot wide G2. But when the teeth are down there is a huge difference you have increased your drag from 4 feet to 6 feet, or from about 60 knives to about 90 knives down in the snow. I pulled a 6 foot wide G2 for a year with my old Skandic SWT. It did the job, BUT I had to be very active with the actuator for the teeth, constantly getting the teeth up out of the snow before I climbed the slightest hills. I learned to do my trail network forward and backwards so I could always till downhill. Bottom line with a 6 foot G2 you need to really pay attention to the knives, and it may be worth it if it saves you a pass around your trail network. My trails are only 8 to 10 feet wide so it's two passes no matter which width I used.

 

[air19]

air do you hit your head on the jack handle?

Or what is that jack really for?

I talked to Dave Zink from TiddTech who created the gooseneck hitch. The jack comes into play when you get stuck. Basically if you sink the teeth of the G2 into the ground you can take enough pressure off the hitch ball to then be able to crank on the jack. You can raise the jack up with the handle high enough to then use the hitch as a big lever arm to swing the entire groomer around. Most of the time I get stuck falling off the side of a trail. So I could unhitch and swing the groomer gooseneck arm into the center of the trail, get the snowmobile out of there and back on the trail, back up to the groomer and away I go again.

It doesn't work like that for me right now. The reason is that he designed the hitch using his Bearcat. With my VK Pro the ball location is slightly farther forward and more importantly about 6 inches higher. To get everything level I had to attach the tongue jack so I have no upward play with it. Therefore the scenario I described above doesn't work. I really need a gooseneck arm that's about 6 inches higher.

I'm thinking through other options to help make it easier when I get stuck. Otherwise the regular performance of the new hitch is good. I'm not getting pushed through the uphill corners as much. I'm taking turns tighter than I used to. It does take some getting used to the "inside tracking" that the hitch allows the groomer to do relative to the snowmobile. More comments as I get more miles on it.

 

[air19]

Gen II Flexi Skis

My Gen II Flexi Skis arrived yesterday. I paid $375 (without the mounts) direct from Simmons in Utah. Gen IIs fit in the same mounts as the original Flexi Skis.

I went out grooming today for about 6 hours and had the best ride I can remember in a long time. Everything was working, even better than expected. The conditions were perfect - 10 degrees F, 2 inches of new powder on top of 6 inches of snow that I groomed yesterday.

I'll start with these wide body flexi skis. Big difference in stability. I rode the edges of my groomed trails all day long and never tipped. Never even had the feeling of tipping, and I've totally tipped the VK a couple times this year. The best I can describe is that every now and then it would rock and rock back before I could react. I actually groomed a good part of the day just sitting down and enjoying the ride. Most of the time I usually stand because I have a much faster reaction time in this position. Not needed today.

Second difference - steering. They were steering better than the original flexi-skis in my opinion, and I have about 6 years of experience with the originals including a year on my VK Pro. Not sure why. Maybe with the wider foot keeps the skis from tipping as much so both runners remain in contact to help with the steering. On my worst corners I was leaning on the inside edge and crawling through them holding a good edge. But the surprizing thing was that on many of my corners I was sitting down and leaning on the outside edge and helping the outside runner do the work. I have about half a dozen hard turns at the top of uphill runs. I was pulling a groomer with a tracksetter today and I hit all my turns. This doesn't happen too often.

Third difference - planing. One of my trails goes through a big field and we have had lots of wind going through there recently and I've been dreading trying to get that trail back. The conditions were about 12 inches of loose snow on top of a hard packed trail that is well marked and mostly level. My usual strategy for this work is to leave the groomer behind and do some joy riding with the VK Pro, hoping my reactions are sharp enough to get through it without any major tips leading to lots of shoveling. Today I had the tenderizer in tow and I cranked it up all the way for minimal resistance. Then I drove around the field at about 15 miles an hour and I was actually planing. Now for some of you speedsters you are probably laughing right now, but for me this was a new experience at this speed. Yes I have buzzed around at 50 mph and been on the top. But I have never planed below 30 mph and today I was doing it at 15 with a groomer in tow. Very cool.

Now I can't do any direct comparison with these wide body flexi-skis vs. the big Yamaha skins. But what I can say is that I would recommend that anyone with a VK give some wide body skis a test drive. It finally feels like I have the right combination up front for this beast. Great floatation, steady ride, minimal outside ski sinking, and totally in control steering. With the front heavy VK Pro, I think a wide body ski is a great match.

The VK also contributed. I really like all the torque and pulling power on this sled. On many of my hills I was "walking" up them with the VK and of course getting better steering control from this. Part of this was certainly the conditions, the snow was just old enough to really allow the VK to grab it.

The only downside of the day was the VK's terrible reverse engagement. Yes I have been playing with it a bunch this year, and sometimes I can rev it while holding the brake to find a different place where the gearing will fall in. Or worst case I have been known to shut the engine off to move it into reverse. But today there were two times when I couldn't even move it with the engine off. Yamaha are you listening. This is my last complaint and it's a big one. Your sled is at a huge disadvantage compared to a Skandic SWT. I haven't heard any shifting complaints from them, and of course with their articulated suspension they can climb out of holes going in reverse, where the VK Pro just digs in deeper. At least we need an easier shifting solution.

Besides the reverse issue, I now have a very enjoyable grooming sled. Here are some pictures of the Flexi-skis with a couple comparing the new wide bodies and the original.

 

[VKbcnorth]

You say that the VK rear skid is not articulated like a Skandic? The VK rear skid is hinged and sprung - how is the Skandic different?

 

[YETI]

Glad to hear they work for you. you have put a lot in to your sled I hope yamaha comes up with a solution for the hard shifting. what is the total cost for the close to perfect grooming sled (work sled) if you don't mind me asking.

 

[air19]

You say that the VK rear skid is not articulated like a Skandic? The VK rear skid is hinged and sprung - how is the Skandic different?

Hey VKbcnorth,

Sorry about any confusion. Actually I did NOT say anything about articulation and the VK rear skid. I did say the Skandic was articulated. And I can easily so now in re-reading my post that you could come to the other conclusion. My apology for mis-leading wording.

So lets just talk about how both sleds perform going in reverse. I had a 99 Skandic SWT and now I have an 08 VK Pro. I had the SWT up until the point that I traded it in for the VK Pro. But, there was never a day when I drove the two side by side in the same conditions. However. I have been riding these sleds on the same 25 kms of trails for years. I do know every section of my trails and all the familar crash areas where I get stuck frequently and have to get in reverse.

There is one particular button-hole turn near a particular log cabin that I can't get around with a drag on any sled. So I have to back up and go forward a few times. On today's ride with the VK Pro I couldn't cut the turn (as expected since I had both a drag and a tracksetter). I had to go backwards and forward four times to get out of there. With the same drag and tracksetter, the SWT usually took two backward and forward manuevers on this turn at the log cabin.

The SWT used to be able to back up another couple of feet. Maybe because of the wider track giving it more floatation. Whatever the reason, by being able to get a little farther back I had more room going forward to turn and get out.

The killer today is that at this point in the ride the VK Pro wasn't shifting easily into reverse. On the first reverse shift attempt I couldn't move the lever. When I turned the engine off, I still couldn't move the lever. Finally I started to hold the brake and give it some throttle going forward. Eventually I found an easier shifting point and got it into reverse. This same frustrating sequence happened on another of the four reverse shifting manuevers. Now if this machine had a reverse that always fell easily into place, I probably wouldn't count all the backward and forward moves I made at the log cabin, but today I had plenty of time and reason to do so.

This was the only negative with the VK Pro today. Otherwise it was an amazing ride, and I would never trade it back for my old 2 stroke SWT.

And of course these are my opinions on the reverse capability of the VK Pro and I would like to hear others, and see if anyone has figured out a way or had their dealer figure out a way for reverse to fall in to place easily on a regular basis.

 

[air19]

Glad to hear they work for you. you have put a lot in to your sled I hope yamaha comes up with a solution for the hard shifting. what is the total cost for the close to perfect grooming sled (work sled) if you don't mind me asking.

Hey Yeti,

I guess I can give you my best estimate of the retail prices of the changes I have done, but you can do better than retail on many of these. It probably depends on your local market and the dealer.

Here's the list I can think of:

1. VK Pro sled - the list for a 2009 sled in US $s is $10,700
2. Second radiator $600 and installation $400
3. Simmons Gen II flexi-skis $375 and mounting kit $65
4. First radiator fan switch and installation $40
5. Slidekicks ice scratchers $80
6. Custom Pintel hitch $40 and installation $40

The custom gooseneck hitch is a special project between myself, my snowmobile dealer and my grooming implement vendor so hard to track costs.

And the other small adjustments or changes where either done by me or just handled by the dealer as part of the deal. For example: taking that little front left shield off (2 minutes), and making all the suspension adjustments.

Looks like about $1500 of add ons to the stock sled mostly because of the second radiator and the flexiskis. I would hope in the future that Yamaha improves the cooling on the stock sled so the second radiator wouldn't be necessary.

Reminds me of starting with a stock Polaris Ranger and adding a couple of key assessories like the power dump body and the winch. That's about where I stopped with my Ranger, but you could go wild with add-ons to these.

 

[YETI]

Thanks air.