Issue on Sidewinder... need some help or ideas.

[BlueByYou2000]

I’ve run the PEFI stage 3 the past 2 seasons, with Sandale 3” Hyperflow and have been extremely satisfied. My knock light definitely works. I’m probably different than most but I’ll bet the longest I’ve ever held it wide open is 1/4 mile. I’ve blown tracks at 125 plus on sleds and it’s just not something I care to go through again. That and to me staying in the throttle for a mile on ANY sled will eventually cause issues. It should be pretty common knowledge by now that the 280 HP level is on the absolute high threshold of the safety zone. This makes it a no brainer that if you are running these higher tunes and are a top end guy, it’s vital add some Torco, Lucas, and or gallon or 2 of some good VP. I will agree with Tom here, and point out if your going to advertise a 91 pump gas 280 tune, the DET protection flat out needs to work, and work on every one. The main reason I say that is who takes the time to test to see if your actually getting 91 at the pump? Especially early season riding where fuel in remote country tanks are most likely substantially less than 91. Gas is garbage today.

 

[yamamarc]

Hurricane and td both run the advanced knock detection created by gap/Dave and endorsed by Ben. This knock detection has been working very well.. (i haven't had a single failure with any sleds i flashed with hurricane since I began)
Not sure if the pefi failures are just coincidence but i hope they are revisiting their tunes and knock protection just to be sure.


My sled ran 270- 300(sm,pm,header, intakes, bad fuel, good fuel, race fuel, )since brand new (now has 9000km) besides breaking clutches, and worn top gears i been running flawlessly

 

[kinger]

It should be pretty common knowledge by now that the 280 HP level is on the absolute high threshold of the safety zone. This makes it a no brainer that if you are running these higher tunes and are a top end guy, it’s vital add some Torco, Lucas, and or gallon or 2 of some good VP.

This was never brought up in fact the opposite, PEFI was working on a 91 stage 4 330hp kit that I was leading up too. I thought I was well within the safe range. On top of that I have no idea how much boost it runs, I don't have a gauge because it wasn't needed in 2017. Its easy to now say its on the ragged edge after seeing a bunch of failures. Ironically I never saw my deto light on the 270 tune, but on the 250 tune on my only trip before it failed again it would flash if I held it WOT for 3 seconds exactly, every time.

Just confirmed on my winder from dealer center cyl popped. This is on a 250 tune fellas with fresh gas. Mine probably had other issues with the dealer assembly but still the deto light was freaking out and I backed off instantly.

I'm not picking on you BBY just pointing out that we are learning together what works and what doesn't and something with PEFI doesn't smell right. It should state 240hp tune is 91 safe but near the edge.

 

[BlueByYou2000]

This was never brought up in fact the opposite, PEFI was working on a 91 stage 4 330hp kit that I was leading up too. I thought I was well within the safe range. On top of that I have no idea how much boost it runs, I don't have a gauge because it wasn't needed in 2017. Its easy to now say its on the ragged edge after seeing a bunch of failures. Ironically I never saw my deto light on the 270 tune, but on the 250 tune on my only trip before it failed again it would flash if I held it WOT for 3 seconds exactly, every time.

Just confirmed on my winder from dealer center cyl popped. This is on a 250 tune fellas with fresh gas. Mine probably had other issues with the dealer assembly but still the deto light was freaking out and I backed off instantly.

I'm not picking on you BBY just pointing out that we are learning together what works and what doesn't and something with PEFI doesn't smell right. It should state 240hp tune is 91 safe but near the edge.

Oh definitely I couldn’t agree more. My post is related to what we know now, not what we thought we knew. Believe me, I’m more concerned now than ever after reading what happens to you and a few others. I’m with ya man. I’m going to make a call. When did you first start having issues? At what approximate mileage.

 

[kinger]

First 100 miles after the tune is when it overheated and I learned it was putting coolant in oil that was why it overheated. Another guy I know over 1000 miles stock. First trip PEFI tune blew center piston in 5 miles across a lake. He wasn’t pinned the whole time, held it for a few seconds then let up a bit. Few more, then on decel coming off lake it popped.

Other guys i know made it 800 miles before theirs let loose. One guy made it 2500 miles after tune. I think it depends on gas quality and how hard you ride. I ride hard. Wot when ever I can and on a lake I don’t let up! Its a 4 stroke, my apex i did lake gogebic all 14 miles at 160+ on dream meter. Perfect conditions and I wanted to see what it would do. I got to the hoop n hollar about 20 mins ahead of the group lol. If I have to let up, I’m not interested.

 

[Snorunner]

Knock sensors are piezo electronic sensors. They can fail they are like microphones. So can the circuit boards or ecu”s that read them. Unfortunately I know this because I service wheel balancers. And that’s what they use to measure vibration. Same thing as a knock sensor. They are so sensitive that they can cause the ECU to retard engine timing due to a loud exhaust. I found this on a customers truck. Many years ago.

 

[number1kyster]

MS 16 is a good tune? Not much difference between those 2 at all

Oh it rips, but it pulls 16.8lbs consistently, which sounds like it's right on that fine line.

It's been flawless so far though.

 

[jonlafon1]

Oh it rips, but it pulls 16.8lbs consistently, which sounds like it's right on that fine line.

It's been flawless so far though.

Your fine! Powertrail is very close.. I will either run powertrail or MS 16 OR MAYBE MS17 on next sled.. Leaning the first two mentioned

 

[KnappAttack]

Your fine! Powertrail is very close.. I will either run powertrail or MS 16 OR MAYBE MS17 on next sled.. Leaning the first two mentioned

Get the dash flash and Multi map so you can adjust for the day based on temp. Cold temps want to overboost and you need to click down, warm temps you need mo power to compensate and need to click up.

 

[Turboflash]

I have to ask, just how educated are you guys when it comes to forced induction? Honestly?

91 octane gas is barely adequate for 15 psi, and timing has to stay at a very conservative level to boot. Like 18° tops. Anything over that needs either much higher octane fuel or supplemental fueling such as methanol injection.

Don't instantly blame Yamaha/Mitsubishi for chitty detonation protection. You & the aftermarket "tuners" are the problem, not them.

A one size fits all approach with these custom tunes are laughable. It's a baseline. Without real time data via a logger or standalone device you have absolutely no idea what is happening.

My mistake is trusting Sebastien at PEFI. He stood at HayDays in MN in Aug. 2017 and promised Stage 3 was safe on 91 pump gas. My bad.

 

[Turboflash]

Being that we are a Precision Dealer, I will chime in.....

Precision tunes (except for their "R" tunes) use the stock air intake. Putting on a cold air intake is definitely prohibited with Precision tunes and we will not sell a Precision tune to someone who has a cold air intake. The Precision "R" tunes are sold with only their cold air intake....nobody else's cold air intake.

Our Precision EFI bundle tunes reads a max of 17 psi and that is what the dash flash reads from the ECU. Aftermarket boost gauges may read more and have run into that issue ourselves. Our Precision tuned sled runs stock airbox and a muffler that is straight through with no issues.

Out of all the tunes Thunder Products Clutching has done, we have had zero engine issues. 4 and 2 stroke flashes.

We have had issues with the SRX dash flash screwing with the Electronic shock package (IQS ECS), where it loses features....but they are working on a fix.

My sled, and the 2 other TCats I've seen with serious deto damage (Stage 3 PEFI) are all meticulously prepped for Stage 3. All have STOCK air boxes. Rollover bypass, NO boost leaks, correct clutching, TS BOV, all have 2.5" straight-thru D&D stainless PM. All running as high octane as can be found. Even 93. Still deto.

No matter what PEFI says, IMO Stage 3 is NOT 91 octane pump gas safe on southern MN gas. Without octane booster (do they really work?) or some C12 mix, they will not live at WOT for a mile!

 

[Turboflash]

I’ve run the PEFI stage 3 the past 2 seasons, with Sandale 3” Hyperflow and have been extremely satisfied. My knock light definitely works. I’m probably different than most but I’ll bet the longest I’ve ever held it wide open is 1/4 mile. I’ve blown tracks at 125 plus on sleds and it’s just not something I care to go through again. That and to me staying in the throttle for a mile on ANY sled will eventually cause issues. It should be pretty common knowledge by now that the 280 HP level is on the absolute high threshold of the safety zone. This makes it a no brainer that if you are running these higher tunes and are a top end guy, it’s vital add some Torco, Lucas, and or gallon or 2 of some good VP. I will agree with Tom here, and point out if your going to advertise a 91 pump gas 280 tune, the DET protection flat out needs to work, and work on every one. The main reason I say that is who takes the time to test to see if your actually getting 91 at the pump? Especially early season riding where fuel in remote country tanks are most likely substantially less than 91. Gas is garbage today.

I agree Knock protection SHOULD work but I've got 3 PEFI sleds in my shop to say it doesn't work, or doesn't work well enough to prevent damage.

 

[theCATman]

My mistake is trusting Sebastien at PEFI. He stood at HayDays in MN in Aug. 2017 and promised Stage 3 was safe on 91 pump gas. My bad.

Don't feel bad, or like my comment was a personal attack. But when it comes to the aftermarket, many(not all) are as bad(or worse) than a slimy politician. They will bold face lie about their product to make the sale.

And when modifying an already modified engine, face it, a forced induction engine is already modified, one CANNOT just go about it without plenty of your own research, knowledge and understanding of how all aspects of forced induction works. It's not as simple as turn up the boost, make more power.

 

[TPAY243]

You can call it what you want but if it is designed and build from the ground up with a turbo how do you consider this a modified engine. This 3 cyl is the most technically advanced engine in snowmobile history. It is turn up the boost and make more power to a certain point. I do agree that some aftermarket company's are worse than some but a lot of times there is more to the story to some of this stuff and when it fails they want to point a finger and never take responsibility themselves.

 

[Turboflash]

Hard to tell in those photos but was that head and cylinder actual damage or just took out head gasket?

Don't know if I answered you - piston damage only. Head gasket was perfect (I have ARP head studs!). In center, there was aluminum stuck to very top of cylinder wall which I easily removed with muriatic acid without affecting the nicasil. Head also had some aluminum stuck to it but I was able to chip it off. Only slight cosmetic blemishes.
Center piston had both corners with severe deto, especially at the mag side intake valve. Enough piston material was gone that I could see the top ring in the void area. Engine was only down about 25 psi in compression but I could tell when it cranked that it was hurt. It still ran good.