Lithium ion Battery...please read

[KnappAttack]

Makes sense. If you can't or don't want to warm up the lithium, then get a AGM. I prefer to take off the 10-12 lbs myself and warming them up isn't a big deal.

They are however using scare tactics that your sled might not start, which I have not had happen with a lithium, and 1200 Doos turn over much harder than 998's, so myself I have no concerns. My bigger concern is the EPS not firing up right away, but I know it will even if you have to stop and re-start, it always fires the EPS up then after being run for a bit, even if it doesn't, it still works as a non-EPS machine which is annoying at best.

People can do whatever suits them best, but taking off 10-12 lbs does't come any easier, other than reducing fuel load, and good luck with that if going the distance.

 

[Doc Harley]

Currently there are three members on this board that experienced a set back at below 0°F temps with Shoria battery. All members purchased the correct battery, are highly educated and understand the warm-up process.
Lithium ion lifepo4 is just not suited for sub zero climate.

 

[74Nitro]

I rarely ride at below -20 and it started.
The Winder doesn't have to crank fast to start thankfully.
If I use the Shoria again, I will go to at least the next size up.
Like Mike says, it is the easiest weight reduction.

 

[sideshowBob]

I have been using EarthX batteries for many many years since they first became available for sleds. I initially installed one in my Attak, Wife's Vmax, and also now in my SW since it was new. I have had zero issues with the EarthX batteries for starting in cold weather but admittedly they initially don't crank like the AGM or lead acid batteries in the cold but they have always started my sleds.

 

[MK4TDI]

I've started my MTX more than a couple times at -30 over the years, i have a bit of a technique that i picked up from real cold starts on the ETEC's.

First battery was a Magnacharge Lithium, and second being the Noco. The heated roll over valve and lights usually arent enough to warm the battery right up.

I usually crank the engine over with the kill switch on so it can't fire the injectors and flood it. Do that a couple times until I feel the engine is turning over fast enough then turn the kill switch off while cranking and away she goes.

I think most people give up on cranking them longer because they are scared they will kill the battery like a traditional AGM or Lead battery.

 

[74Nitro]

I have been using EarthX batteries for many many years since they first became available for sleds. I initially installed one in my Attak, Wife's Vmax, and also now in my SW since it was new. I have had zero issues with the EarthX batteries for starting in cold weather but admittedly they initially don't crank like the AGM or lead acid batteries in the cold but they have always started my sleds.

I'll add that you live where it's quite a bit colder than where I live....

 

[Doc Harley]

I've started my MTX more than a couple times at -30 over the years, i have a bit of a technique that i picked up from real cold starts on the ETEC's.

First battery was a Magnacharge Lithium, and second being the Noco. The heated roll over valve and lights usually arent enough to warm the battery right up.

I usually crank the engine over with the kill switch on so it can't fire the injectors and flood it. Do that a couple times until I feel the engine is turning over fast enough then turn the kill switch off while cranking and away she goes.

I think most people give up on cranking them longer because they are scared they will kill the battery like a traditional AGM or Lead battery.

That technique sounds promising!

 

[KnappAttack]

Currently there are three members on this board that experienced a set back at below 0°F temps with Shoria battery. All members purchased the correct battery, are highly educated and understand the warm-up process.
Lithium ion lifepo4 is just not suited for sub zero climate.

Says the guy with the lithium in it and installing a battery heater on it.... I thought about that back when I ran the 1200 way back before I figured out my clutch fan would easily put enough load on it to wake and warm the smaller 18 battery.

I haven't seen any guys here with issues not starting. Only issues I see in this thread is batteries that shut down with the BMS in the cold. And that problem has been talked about enough that anyone doing their research should have known about before now. Otherwise, I don't see anyone being stranded or without engines that don't start.

I rarely ride at below -20 and it started.
The Winder doesn't have to crank fast to start thankfully.
If I use the Shoria again, I will go to at least the next size up.
Like Mike says, it is the easiest weight reduction.

IMO going to the bigger 24 battery didn't add much at all if anything over what the 18 already had even though it has almost 100 more CCA. I would be just as happy running the 18 as I had that in the Winder for a couple years and it did just as well as the 24 does IMO. I dont see any difference in cranking speed, or longevity, and the 24 is defiantly heavier than the smaller 18 was. I went to the 24 because it fit in the normal spot and HD terminals on it, plus it was on sale at the time. Boy have they gone up in price lately!

I've started my MTX more than a couple times at -30 over the years, i have a bit of a technique that i picked up from real cold starts on the ETEC's.

First battery was a Magnacharge Lithium, and second being the Noco. The heated roll over valve and lights usually arent enough to warm the battery right up.

I usually crank the engine over with the kill switch on so it can't fire the injectors and flood it. Do that a couple times until I feel the engine is turning over fast enough then turn the kill switch off while cranking and away she goes.

I think most people give up on cranking them longer because they are scared they will kill the battery like a traditional AGM or Lead battery.

How could you use the NOCO lithium? Great battery but they have a BMS that shuts the battery off in the mid teens F as I recall People have used them in the 998 and blown the rectifiers out and had all kinds of problems when that happens.

Pulled this from NOCO site earlier.

Dynamic BMS.
The product utilizes a dynamic Battery Management System (BMS) that monitors the internal lithium-ion cells and disconnects them if a fault occurs. The BMS protects against over-charge, over-discharge, over-current, short-circuit, over-temperature, and under- temperature fault conditions. The BMS also includes cell balancing to maintain voltage balance between individual cells to ensure optimal battery performance. The BMS automatically recovers from fault conditions without user intervention.
In extremely cold temperatures, the battery may be slow to provide power initially. If this occurs, attempt to start the equipment again. Repeated attempts will self-heat the lithium cells and allow them to provide sufficient power. In order to protect the lithium cells, the BMS will not allow charging below -10oC (14.0°F). Once the battery temperature reaches -10oC (14.0°F) or higher, charging will be allowed.
In order to protect the lithium cells, the BMS will not allow charging or discharging when the battery temperature reaches 60oC (140°F). This situation can occur with high ambient temperature and repeated starting attempts which self-heat the battery. Once the battery cools the BMS will allow charging and discharging.

 

[Doc Harley]

The last 3yrs I've been riding in an avg. outside temp of 20°F and last week was in the mid 30's. So really not much risk for me.
With such a large diverse group, its very hard for me to make a blanket statement, "don't worry, it works for me." It puts riders at risk.
then there's the matter of, you're not supposed to use a jump pack in freezing temps to try and fire up your sled. That can get ugly very quickly. Makes it hard to beat the AMG/lead acid style batteries.
Heat pad has logic, as the internal heat from the battery is facing below 0° external temps. (Adding a pad to back as well) This will provide a buffer.
I'll give it a try either tomorrow/Friday as the overnight low to be -15°F

 

[DooZ]

Has anyone had a problem when "warming" these batteries up with fouling a plug(s)?

 

[Turboflash]

The last 3yrs I've been riding in an avg. outside temp of 20°F and last week was in the mid 30's. So really not much risk for me.
With such a large diverse group, its very hard for me to make a blanket statement, "don't worry, it works for me." It puts riders at risk.
then there's the matter of, you're not supposed to use a jump pack in freezing temps to try and fire up your sled. That can get ugly very quickly. Makes it hard to beat the AMG/lead acid style batteries.
Heat pad has logic, as the internal heat from the battery is facing below 0° external temps. (Adding a pad to back as well) This will provide a buffer.
I'll give it a try either tomorrow/Friday as the overnight low to be -15°F

How are "heat pads" connected? Does one install a separate switch or what? I wonder how long the heat pad has to be on to really do any good? At -10, it has to take a while. Trying to learn.

 

[KnappAttack]

Has anyone had a problem when "warming" these batteries up with fouling a plug(s)?

I never have. The problem with fouling plugs on a four-stroke comes from starting them when cold and loading or unloading on and off trailers and when not letting them come up to temp, get put under a load and from being shutdown while under rich startup mode.

Most of us running the lightweight lithiums have run them for many years and know the in's and out's of them and have never had problems at all. If you go back to the beginning of this thread, you'll see that someone up north started his sled just fine in the very cold temps when the other sleds with AGM batteries didn't start and needed jumped. So lots of scare tactics and non starting talk for nothing.

I fired up a 1200 Doo with the smaller 18 battery at -37F when up north once that sat outside, and the 1200 is harder to start in the cold than the 998 ever could be. Yes, they need to be woke up at that temp with a load, but to me it's such a non issue. Lithium batteries last more than twice as long as AGM or lead acid and to me that alone is worth it, but they are not for everyone obviously. Some dont know that they need woke up in the cold, they just see an engine not turn over well on the the first or second try. I get it, I was there the first time I tried it, once I knew this, it was easy. When warm they do way better than any normal AGM or lead acid as the voltage is higher, it's like supercharging your starter. they also don't run low like a AGM or lead acid and get weaker as you use them, they just get stronger in the cold when warmed. Is a heater on the battery overkill, yes it is, not needed once running or woken up, however it will put a load on the battery and heat up the internals for wake up, so kind of a win win so to speak. Anything to put a load on them before turning over the first start of the day if sitting out in the cold.

 

[KnappAttack]

How are "heat pads" connected? Does one install a separate switch or what? I wonder how long the heat pad has to be on to really do any good? At -10, it has to take a while. Trying to learn.

Yes, you need a switch from the battery to warm the battery if you use a heater. I was going to use handlebar heaters and just stick them on the battery on the 1200 front and back. but just used the clutch fan I installed instead and found using a heat would be unnecessary. Any electrical item drawing load form the battery is going to warm the battery internals which wakes it up. even an engine crank cycle or two as you found out.

 

[sideshowBob]

I'll add that you live where it's quite a bit colder than where I live....

Yes, in January we are riding at times when the OAT is @ -30c/-22f or colder but as I get older less and less!!

 

[sideshowBob]

I've started my MTX more than a couple times at -30 over the years, i have a bit of a technique that i picked up from real cold starts on the ETEC's.

I usually crank the engine over with the kill switch on so it can't fire the injectors and flood it. Do that a couple times until I feel the engine is turning over fast enough then turn the kill switch off while cranking and away she goes.

That cranking the engine technique before ignition and fuel is a old aircraft radial engine start technique that we used up north especially in ultra cold conditions. I actually put a fuel pump switch on my Attak for ultra cold starts. I would crank the Attak a few times to heat up the lithium battery with the fuel pump switched off and then while cranking the engine switch the fuel pump back on to prevent flooding or frosting the plugs and it worked every time.