Milage and top speed loss with Bergstrom TP's and Ski Savers

[Metallicat]

I removed my ski savers and haven't noticed any darting either. I found the ski savers delivered too much push in the corners. I am happy with my Bergstrom tripple points and shims without ski savers. Plus, if you torque the skag bolts too much, the ski savers will bend and warp around the carbides causing all types of handling problems (excessive ski pressure in tight corners). I didn't really see the benefits of the ski savers. You can't torque the bolts down at all with the ski savers. Torque them and then look at your ski bottoms. The ski savers will be smashed into your center ski groove and will be flanged downward. Not good!

 

[iasledder]

Kevin, from the work I did last season I would say more than anything else it's getting the skis shimmed so the wear point on the carbides is centered. The worst condition is with the wear point being ahead of the mounting bolt. The ski set up on the Apex ER couldn't have been worse if planned. I've never had any sled dart that bad. Once Bergrstom explained to me about getting the wear centered on the carbides by shimming I really had no further problem with darting. I changed skis for better flexibility in the stutters. The stiff as a board Yamies transferred a great deal of the chatter into the handlebars.

 

[wannagofast]

I would say you lost a lot of top end to me. I regularly pull 110-115 on my 06 vector. My buddy 170 plus pulls 125-130 on his 06 apex. 111 just sounds really slow for an apex to me.

 

[MXD]

So if I take them out, what should I expect? Will the steering get heavier or will it dart more? What are the negatives?

 

[KnappAttack]

He's talking about running loose snow on a groomed trail, not ice. Plus, its only turning 10,200-10,300. Someone needs to tell me why the ski saver would drag off more speed than driving a steel carbide to a deeper depth. I just don't see why it would take away speed in the trail. Plastic drags less than iron. I have not tried it, but I want to know.

 

[Metallicat]

I found the steering to be more positive without the ski savers. Less push. No darting with the savers, no darting without. More controlled steering overall IMHO without the ski savers.

So if I take them out, what should I expect? Will the steering get heavier or will it dart more? What are the negatives?

 

[170plus]

i have stock carbides about 1/2 worn out and the plastic skidoo style easysteers on stock skis( with about 1/8" of the keel shaved off),we "are" talking about running on drug trails like rbeds ,i have never run mine on ice flat out to see what it would do ,1000ft radar runs is it,i will see on a ok condition drug trail 120mph on speedo anytime,a good rrbed with air temps above 20deg i have seen 134,below zero on the thermometer the other day the best i seen was 127,i noticed when i got home that there was about 100lbs of ice stuckj under the tunnel,i have since pulled my tunnel protectors to help that cause,of course i have done everything i can to help with topend like rolling resistance,im not studded,suspension is set soft so sled sets lower,i wouldnt be happy if all i could get was 111,something has to be holding you back,whether its big skags,lots of studs,hi revving clutch kit,track too tight or too loose,who knows but the sled will do better

 

[KnappAttack]

Snow and trail conditions mean everything with these machines.


I want to know why you guys think a ski saver will drag more than a ski without it. Woodys doolys don't drag off more than 1-2 MPH using dual carbides dragging into the snow, why would a single carbide with a ski saver drag more? I just do not see this happening.


The ski saver prevents the carbide from digging deeper into the snow, and is made of plastic which slides much easier than dragging the wearbar deeper into the snow. I don't care about pushing or darting I want to know why it would drag more.

When you ride the trails in the UP you will understand why its important we prevent the darting. I see people talking about darting fixes. Up to this point, the only thing that STOPS darting for me is the doolys and shims adding heel pressure, and they tend to push in the corners. I have now gone to the 6.9 pilots and they corner and float much better, but I can not ride farther than 200 miles a day with them due to the darting. I have the ski savers on now to try to get rid of the darting. I have not tried them yet. I just dont see how they could rob any speed, especially over the doolys.

 

[MXD]

Thanks for all the input. I'm headed to Millinocket a week from today. There are enough different opinions out there that I will conduct a quick test of my own. I'll do a few GPS runs on the lake, then take them off and do a few more. I'll also measure milage. I'll let you guys know what I find out.

 

[iasledder]

The ski saver prevents the carbide from digging deeper into the snow

Knapp this is my thought. The keel is now thicker so except on severe hard pack or ice the sled is still floating on the bottom of the ski with more protrusion under the snow. On hard pack when the ski is floating on the Saver the lbs/sq" is greater than floating on the bottom of the ski, just as is a short track vs. a longer track. However without the Saver there is also more sq" of drag on the bottom of the ski. Who offsets what? On the same day with as close to exact conditions as possible it would have to show a significant difference in speed to mean much. At least 3 tests required; Savers, no Savers and back to Savers. Repeat conditions alone can cause minor speed changes.

Unless you are drag racing to top end probably very little overall difference with or without savers. Then remember the 4 stoke Yamie in most cases is not going to be a top end winner. The rest is just bragging rights. Ya, I know a bunch more blah, blah, blah.

 

[KnappAttack]

Well I tested the 3/8" ski savers on my 6.9 pilots today. No loss of topend in hardpacked field using the ski saver in this application. In fact I picked up speed with the savers installed in these conditions, on this particular day. Very nice. I did notice more push and lighter steering than the shaper bars I replaced them with. I'm glad there was no speed loss. Hopefully it won't dart anymore when I get to the UP next week.

 

[KevinS]

MXD,
Were you able to do any testing?

 

[MXD]

No, we went out one day and did a long ride and I recorded my milage (14.4). I took the savers off and set out the next morning to do the exact same ride except there was 6 inches of fresh snow so that threw the test off. I am going back up this weekend and I plan to try it again. I'll keep you guys posted. I am also going to test top speed but that is the easy part.

 

[KnappAttack]

KevinS,
I just got back from the UP and had the Bergstroms + 3/8" ski savers on my pilot 6.9's and can tell you that I had no loss on top end, if anything, it picked up a bit of speed. My mileage was the best I have seen with them too. They unfortunately did not cure the darting, they made it a little bit better and now the sled pushes pretty bad in the corners with them. It wasn't worth the trade off from the push with them over the shaper bar on the pilots. So far, I like a sharpened 8" dooly the best to TOTALLY eliminate the darting. I also believe that sharpening the dooly host bar eliminates the build up of snow between the runners and allows them to get rid of the snow that wants to pack in and hold there allowing the push in certain conditions. The 6.9 pilots floats in the powder, and carves corners best with shapers. I really want to rid the pilots of the darting. My next step is to try the deuce bar on them next year when they become available. Until then, its back to the doolys and no darting.

 

[schmeg]

Once I read this thread when it started, I decided to do a little testing. I've always run the Bergs with 3/8ths saver. On groomed trail I'm 112-115 indicated. My big track is holding me back a bit I know. On a section of snow covered plowed road I get 118 at best. So last Sat. I took off the Bergs and put on stock Yammi carbide that have 0 miles on them and ran the same stretch with the same conditions, no change in speed and no change in fuel economy. I've been getting 14.5 MPG all winter, which is down from 16.5 last year. Strangely most of my riding buds are getting less fuel economy this year, and top speeds are off a little reguardless of brand of sled. No good explaination yet.