motec stand alone, engine build, turbo info needed

[mbarryracing]

I have no safeguards in place in my Motec for poor fuel octane quality. I am the only safeguard... relying purely on monitoring temps and making sure I purchase gas at a busy gas station that I know has frequent turn over so the gas is likely fresh, and when I don't have confidence in the gas fill up, I am mindful of how much throttle I use.
I do have a table programmed in the motec for anything under a certain % throttle position my boost control solenoid is full closed to the wastegate actuator for the lowest boost possible, which for my actuator is 8 psi and still rips. If i'm on the trail and think the gas is suspect, I just don't run the sled hard and control my thumb.
A stock compression RX1 or Apex will run a WOT pull of about 5 seconds under 12 psi boost on 87 octane pump gas before detonation starts... I am decompressed so I realized I just need to be smart about how I run the machine.

There are compensation tables for IAT an ECT that progressively add or subtract fuel and pull timing and/or boost when the intake air temp or coolant temps start climbing to whatever you choose, so that is a form of protection that is very effective. Even though I have the motec displaying IAT in the baro readout on the factory dash, after a long pull if the IAT's get above a conservative 100 deg F I have it pulling enough timing to make a difference in power that I can feel so I know it's time take it easy and watch the IAT readout. I also have a separate coolant temp gauge so when it starts getting hot, I don't push it either. Been almost a decade treating it like this and no puffing from the crankcase breather, so must be dodging that deto bullet ok. I also can carry a can of Torco additive if I still feel the"need" to run it hard when only being able to fill up with questionable gas.

I don't think boost can be controlled in milliseconds adaquate enough to be the first response to detonation knock being sensed. Pulling boost away is typically either simultaneous or secondary to retarding timing and adding fuel as it relatively takes longer for boost to respond because of mechanical delays, versus pulling ignition timing that is instant followed closely behind by an increase in fuel spray from the injectors to quelch the knock because of the quick processing speed of a motec... What I am referring to by boost control mechanical delays is as the boost solenoid is activated to pull boost it takes time to pressurize the wastegate actuator diaphram and have it react to move the wastegate, for the turbo speed to respond and for the boost pressure in the intake system / charge tube / intercooler to dissipate... even out a BOV or SC Bypass... which all sums up as time you don't want to wait for when your engine is rattling at 10,000+ rpm.
Proof of this is taking a look at a typical boost pressure log and see the ocillations from the boost control...

i'm pretty confident most knock maps start out by pulling timing and adding fuel to create a cooling rich AFR, then if a specificed amount of time elapses and it's still rattling they dump boost pressure as a limp mode.

 

[kinger]

Good info, timing is instant and a better way to get rid of knock immediately I agree. I can set up maybe pull 3 degrees then if its still there pull 3 more, cut 3lbs of boost, etc. Something like that. Motec is sure amazing! Ape's on boost with factory timing and no knock are extremely reliable, add Motec and now we can have what ever we dream up. Love it.

 

[mattymac]

I feel like im pretty knowledgeable, definitely dont know it all but pre ignition happens from enough heat generated in the combustion chamber upon compression to ignite the air fuel mixture without an ignition source from the spark plug itself... how will backing off ignition timing prevent pre ignition? I get ignition timing is instant to pull back but boost IMO would play a bigger role in deto when pushing the limits even though it takes longer to actually pull back and limit air entering the engine to stop deto.

Also whats the best way to get ahold of Martin to get the ball rolling on getting a Motec setup for me?

 

[mattymac]

Also what about blowing out spark at higher boost levels? Does the motec help this issue in any way? Or is the stock stator/flywheel/COP still the weak link? Whats the ballpark limit for boost levels and blowing out spark on the apex?

 

[mbarryracing]

Motec ECU will not help with spark strength, as that is a pure function of coil energy / amperage.
The aftermarket does have a few higher power coils available, like Takai Racing, which are on the pricy side. The factory COP are fine with a tightened up plug gap. I run 0.018" with stock plugs on high boost racing Apexes, no misfires from spark blowing out. When you get north of 20 psi boost on stock coils you will run into misfiring due to blown out spark kernels if you don't tighten the gaps.
The Motec does have an optional "Multispark" upgrade to enable configuring an ignition to fire multiple times like a MSD, not sure what compatible coils you'd need to use, or if the stock coils are even capable of re energizing fast enough for multi spark events...

 

[kinger]

Also what about blowing out spark at higher boost levels? Does the motec help this issue in any way? Or is the stock stator/flywheel/COP still the weak link? Whats the ballpark limit for boost levels and blowing out spark on the apex?

So far I don't know if we seen the limit on OEM spark under 30 psi seems to be ok. I will be running tighter gaps and going possibly up to 30 psi pending octane with no mods to spark planned....

 

[mattymac]

So I had to reach out to motec USA, told them I cant get ahold of anyone of their dealers who does the apex M400 setup.

They referred me to Will Hunsberger @ secondstreetspeed.

He's been replying to my ?'s via email very promptly but hes talking me into the M130 ECU claiming its their latest ECU technology with a WAY faster processor than the M400 and that it comes with more add ons than the M400, and 250MB of data logging vs 1MB on the M400. Plus he said he could build a race harness for me if I wanted.

Still working on the details but so far so good in dealing with him. Plus him being in the states is a bonus.

 

[mbarryracing]

The Apex kit comes with the M400 Marine version that is sealed waterproof, which is a good idea for a snowmobile application. Might want to check that you'd be getting the M130 marine version.
Can't help you with a M130 cal file for an Apex, you will have to find one.

 

[mattymac]

Yes, it was stated that it would be the marine version so water wont be an issue with the M130.

Still going back and forth with details between the two ECU's so its not fully decided yet on which one ill go with but Will thinks its a no brainer to go with the M130.

 

[sxr70001]

Not a snowmobile, but this guy has experience with them too as a possible person you could talk to. He is here in Michigan somewhere around the Bay City area. It looks like someone from Motec is connecting remotely and tuning his car in this video.

 

[kinger]

So I had to reach out to motec USA, told them I cant get ahold of anyone of their dealers who does the apex M400 setup.

They referred me to Will Hunsberger @ secondstreetspeed.

He's been replying to my ?'s via email very promptly but hes talking me into the M130 ECU claiming its their latest ECU technology with a WAY faster processor than the M400 and that it comes with more add ons than the M400, and 250MB of data logging vs 1MB on the M400. Plus he said he could build a race harness for me if I wanted.

Still working on the details but so far so good in dealing with him. Plus him being in the states is a bonus.

That sounds like a nice option, you would be on a island though with the M130 as the rest of us have M400 but unless Will gets hit by a bus maybe he can get you set up and running. If memory serves getting the factory dash to run was a lot of work, like getting the fuel level and control the hand warmers as that is not a normal thing for Motec, but if you're doing a race build none of that would matter. I am using a Powertune digital dash from Australia it just showed up but I haven't actually used it yet. That is a great option if it works as advertised for $700 vs the $2500 Motec displays then you wouldn't need the factory apex dash. I will keep it just for my fuel gauge and error codes but mine is a trail sled so I need all the normal functions. The dash will just replace my analog gauge pack and lights up flashing red at preset limits for knock, boost, etc. so I can see it easier when I'm riding. Going to be sweet if it all works out.

 

[kinger]

I forgot to add, I like the plug and play M400 so that if needed I can swap in the OEM ECU to diagnose a possible bad Motec box for instance, or if I couldn't get it to start, at least with the OEM it would start and idle so I figured it would help should I have a issue with the M400 itself.