No Rebound!

[Groomerdriver]

does that mean the more pressure I want to put on the skies the less rear travel I get?

Could be, but it depends on how you are achieving the increased spring pressure. I am learning about rear suspension settings along with the rest of you, so I may be way off base about why your sleds sits low and doesn't rebound.

You have tightened your straps, limiting middle shock/ spring extension capability, and you also have your transfer set at minimum transfer, fully coupling your rear and middle suspension. I think the tighter straps affect the rear of the skid more when set at maximum coupling (less transfer). Your torsion spring setting basically controls ride height (sit in), not really tension. Perhaps you have it set up so you can't take advantage of the full travel. Correct ride height is very important for comfort. If your ride height is not correct, the front and rear suspension couples at the wrong times and can result in an overly stiff ride.

The basic function of the limiting straps are to keep the middle shock from pulling itself apart on hard extension. I realize that it is sometimes beneficial to tighten these up to reduce ski lift, but I'm not a big fan of "sucking the straps down". I do have mine tightened to the second hole from top though, like a lot of you.

Please feel free to correct me on any points.

FWIW:

1. Ride height (torsion setting) set to how you want the skid to perform seems to be very important on this skid. I used to use the torsions for controlling ride quality, but on this skid, it seems like the softer you want it to ride, the harder the springs have to be to keep the ride height up. The POJ rear skid shock plays a part in this IMO.

2. In thinking LOTS about the sled, IMO the BEST way to adjust ski pressure is through the shock springs and shock valving. Lighten up on the valving allows the sled to sit a bit lower in the travel of the shock. Add a higher rate spring, you can tighten it to achieve the best combo of ski pressure and anti lift characteristics.

3. Never liked to pull down straps to get more pressure. For whatever reason, it really seems to upset the natural balance of the sled. This sled is front heavy already...why add/need more?

2more - wish I was as level headed as you are!!!! me =

 

[twomorestrokes]

I agree with your #3 view on limiter straps. My usual rule of thumb is to pick the back of the sled up (better have someone help you with this sled) and watch how the track contacts level ground just as you set it back down. It should be uniform. Too tight on the straps and the skid does not sit right on the level ground and the middle shock and spring are taken out of the picture and the weight is now on the rear of the skid and the skis. Not meant to be like that. The sled should ride evenly on the rear, middle and front suspensions. Solve your issues with spring and shock work, not distorting the design. Best description I've read lately is to consider the sleds suspension as a 3 legged stool. Add a 4th leg in the middle, and if it is too long, it upsets the whole thing. Miss-adjusting the heights on parts of your suspension and you are doing the same thing, and causing parts of your sled to either fight with each other or to not work at all. Your ride height with a fully dressed rider should end up about midway in the coupling system. The front and middle suspensions will also not work right with each other if the basic ride height is not correct.

I'm happy with the ride and handling of my Vector. I have two basic issues with this sled is it is.

#1- I can't stand comfortably on it, as the bars are too low and it's tough if you can't come close to straightening your legs.

#2- It rides nice for me 90% of the time, but when I'm out in the rough stuff, the sled bottoms out too easilly in the deep bumps. This produces a spine jarring jolt, and it is made worse because I can't stand as well as I'd like when I see these coming.

My improvements this season is that I'm moving the bars up and forward a little to hopefully help. Not much. I got free product from a company looking for R&D. They are actually sportbike risers that are intended to move the bars back. I have them on backwards moving the bars forward and up, but the bolt spacing and fit is great. I have also bought an Ohlins for the rear from Oak Hill. He did not like the stiffness, but personally I would like some more dampening in the rear for my weight and the kind of riding I enjoy. The rear shock slams through it's travel without enough dampening. I'll probably end up getting the middle shock revalved to slow down the compression also, but we'll see how this goes first.

 

[Groomerdriver]

I agree with your #3 view on limiter straps. My usual rule of thumb is to pick the back of the sled up (better have someone help you with this sled) and watch how the track contacts level ground just as you set it back down. It should be uniform. Too tight on the straps and the skid does not sit right on the level ground and the middle shock and spring are taken out of the picture and the weight is now on the rear of the skid and the skis. Not meant to be like that. The sled should ride evenly on the rear, middle and front suspensions. Solve your issues with spring and shock work, not distorting the design. Best description I've read lately is to consider the sleds suspension as a 3 legged stool. Add a 4th leg in the middle, and if it is too long, it upsets the whole thing. Miss-adjusting the heights on parts of your suspension and you are doing the same thing, and causing parts of your sled to either fight with each other or to not work at all. Your ride height with a fully dressed rider should end up about midway in the coupling system. The front and middle suspensions will also not work right with each other if the basic ride height is not correct.

I'm happy with the ride and handling of my Vector. I have two basic issues with this sled is it is.

#1- I can't stand comfortably on it, as the bars are too low and it's tough if you can't come close to straightening your legs.

#2- It rides nice for me 90% of the time, but when I'm out in the rough stuff, the sled bottoms out too easilly in the deep bumps. This produces a spine jarring jolt, and it is made worse because I can't stand as well as I'd like when I see these coming.

My improvements this season is that I'm moving the bars up and forward a little to hopefully help. Not much. I got free product from a company looking for R&D. They are actually sportbike risers that are intended to move the bars back. I have them on backwards moving the bars forward and up, but the bolt spacing and fit is great. I have also bought an Ohlins for the rear from Oak Hill. He did not like the stiffness, but personally I would like some more dampening in the rear for my weight and the kind of riding I enjoy. The rear shock slams through it's travel without enough dampening. I'll probably end up getting the middle shock revalved to slow down the compression also, but we'll see how this goes first.

had a nice chat with Deycore a little while ago...will post about later.

FWIW - I would consider going to a progressive rate spring before revalving the front track shock. Deycore nailed the rear shock issue right away when they said there's no dampening in this shock. THey claimed that they could build a custom HPG shock and valve it for my ride quality desires, and a clicker would not be needed.

 

[kinger]

I don't think we should have to spend any money! The damn thing was over $8000 new it should be able to ride it without tipping it over. Last year within 50 miles it threw him off 3 times like a bucking bronco and the sled just sat thier idling, and we are experienced riders with over 20 years a peice on sleds, this is the first new yamaha of the family and was purchased because I had such good luck with my 02 viper.

Current settings are:

Front spindles all the way tight (this helped dramatically with ski lift)
Rear coil over spring tighented slightly past half way of yamaha spec
Limiter straps down one hole from factory
control rods set to max ski pressure
Cam at Medium

We haven't taken it out yet as we don't have enough snow to test handling but what has me concerned now is that the thing sags just sitting there and will not rebound the last 1.5", it comes up to that point and just stops, I'm thinking the limiter straps are the culprit so does that mean the more pressure I want to put on the skies the less rear travel I get?

I fully agree that one sholdn't have to spend the $$ to make it good. We didn't buy a ProX ditchbanger (Nytro or similar) and want to turn it into a trail cruiser. But as everybody says, this sled is perfect (sorry..I'm in a bad mood now).

If you don't want to spend ANY money, here's what I would try:

1. Cam at hard (max)
2.. Transfer rods at max transfer (full opposite of what you have now)
3. Track spring cranked as tight as you can.
4. I'd go back to limiter straps at factory middle.
5. DO you have Doolies or Stud Boy dual shaper bars?

IMO - the rear track shock is a big problem in this skid.

If you wanted to spend minimal $$, I would:

1. Buy heavier springs for ski shocks
2. Buy progressive rate spring for the track shock
3. Seems like the SB Shaper doolies are the hottest ticket.

I gotta say again, I have no issues with the handling of my sled. I think a little ski lift is a fact of life unless you want a skid so tight that it rides hard if you don't ride it hard. Right now with the revalved front ski shocks plus the stock spring tight, the front end ride is much much better! I might try heavier springs after I get 500 miles on the new setup, but we'll see. I rode a friends 02 Viper and my Vector at it's worst rode better than the Viper IMO!!!

I will try those 'free' set ups. Sled now has doolys on it with no miles.

Viper vs vector let me tell ya the viper suspension is non-exisitant but its just so much easier to control, I can go into a corner too hot and make it out fine where as I think I would wrap the vector right around a tree. Comfort your not joking I'm not sure that my 02 with stiff shocks even flexes! ha ha but I like it, his is a totatlly different story he needs it to be as soft as it can be and soak up the moguls.

 

[Blue Giant]

I spoke with my dealer today and explained my situation with regards to my unhappiness with the ride and handling of my Vector. I was referred to the head mechanic who explained how to adjust my suspension based on my weight and riding style. After dinner this evening I went out to the garage and proceeded to soften up my suspension. It still has no bounce or spring to it. I drove over to a frinds house who just happens to own a 2005 Vector and checked out his. His is set to soft exactly as I now have mine set, lots of bounce in his suspension!

I will be taking my sled back to the dealer tomorrow as I am now convinced there is definitely something wrong with mine.


Thanks,

Paul aka Blue Giant

 

[Nordik]

The 05 Vector's suspension is nothing less than marvellous for long day ride on all kind of conditions. I sold mine to my cousin this year and he is amazed, as were all my buddies last year! http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewtopic.php?t=12186. Read this and enjoy. This year i didn't ride much on the Gt, but it seems not bad at all. No bottoming, contrary to my Attack who is.

 

[Oak Hill]

Thanks Gents!

Quick recap;

I'm 210lbs
Ski shocks set to med.
Front skid shock med/hard.
Rear spring cam on med.
No studs.

I just don't understand why I can push down on the tail of my Grand Touring and feel the spring in the suspension and have it boumce back up and when do the same to the Vector there is no bouce and I have to practicly stand on the rear bumper to make this thing move.

Try these settings and ride it for a while and tell me what you think:

1. Set front ski springs to full soft. Raise the front of the sled off from the ground and adjust the spring collars so they are just touching the springs.

2. Set the front rear suspension spring to 113.5 mm - see your manual.

3. Set your Anti Bottoming stoppers to full soft - most forward location - very important to reduce kick.

4. Set rear spring cams to full soft.

5. Set your Transfer nuts to full transfer - for softest ride - you will get ski lift in corners. No transfer - firmer ride - no ski lift in corners.

Every one has thier own settings and the desired ride they like. Try all of the suggested settings listed and give us your feed back.

Keep in mind that these sleds are a Trail Performance Sled (Firm Ride)and where not classified as a Trail Cruiser (Plush Ride). Also all sleds need to be dialed in, to each and every ones likes and some times that requires spending money. Just like your personal vehicle you drive every day. I would like Yamaha to offer Build Your Own Sled
You can choose the Model, Color, Shocks and Springs for your wieght.


Undecided - keeps us informed on the rear shock you mentioned

 

[Groomerdriver]

Keep in mind that these sleds are a Trail Performance Sled (Firm Ride)and where not classified as a Trail Cruiser (Plush Ride).

While they were "listed" as Trail Performance on the Yami website, all of the Yami marketing info + dealer(s) sales pitch was that this was a trail cruiser. You wanted performance??...get the RX-1. But we've beaten this dead horse pretty good now haven't we!

Undecided - keeps us informed on the rear shock you mentioned

Deycore will custom build you a HPG rebuildable shock for $265 (they bill your CC when it's shipped). They will valve it to your riding style. Leadtime right now is 2 weeks. Wait till summer and they'll give you 15% off the $265 price. THis shock will not have a clickers....they claim the typical trail rider doesn't need one(two), and FWIW..I agree with them.

For me it's a tough call....if I do this I will wait till summer and get the 15 off. IF they could turn it in a matter of days, different story. If our $$ situation gets better, M10 here I come.

 

[Blue Giant]

Thanks Gents!

Quick recap;

I'm 210lbs
Ski shocks set to med.
Front skid shock med/hard.
Rear spring cam on med.
No studs.

I just don't understand why I can push down on the tail of my Grand Touring and feel the spring in the suspension and have it boumce back up and when do the same to the Vector there is no bouce and I have to practicly stand on the rear bumper to make this thing move.

Try these settings and ride it for a while and tell me what you think:

1. Set front ski springs to full soft. Raise the front of the sled off from the ground and adjust the spring collars so they are just touching the springs.

2. Set the front rear suspension spring to 113.5 mm - see your manual.

3. Set your Anti Bottoming stoppers to full soft - most forward location - very important to reduce kick.

4. Set rear spring cams to full soft.

5. Set your Transfer nuts to full transfer - for softest ride - you will get ski lift in corners. No transfer - firmer ride - no ski lift in corners.

Every one has thier own settings and the desired ride they like. Try all of the suggested settings listed and give us your feed back.

Keep in mind that these sleds are a Trail Performance Sled (Firm Ride)and where not classified as a Trail Cruiser (Plush Ride). Also all sleds need to be dialed in, to each and every ones likes and some times that requires spending money. Just like your personal vehicle you drive every day. I would like Yamaha to offer Build Your Own Sled
You can choose the Model, Color, Shocks and Springs for your wieght.


Undecided - keeps us informed on the rear shock you mentioned

Oak Hill-
Been there, done that. See my post above. It's going back to the dealer and if he tells me there is nothing wrong with it I'll be riding an Arctic Cat very soon.

 

[twomorestrokes]

One last thought BG and probably a longshot. You didn't have your track sitting on a roller dolly when you were checking the rebound, did you? I replaced the rear shock on mine this morning, but before I did anything, I thought about this post and pushed down on the rear bumper a few times. I noticed that the compression stiffened up right away and not much travel or rebound. I then noticed that the transfer gap was very small and the straps were tight. It dawned on me that it was still on the dollys and the track dolly was toward the back compressing the rear suspension and extending the middle, coupling the suspension very early. I set the sled on the ground and gained more travel and rebound. If you have your torsion spring set on soft, maybe you don't have enough suspension height and travel before coupling. Sit on the sled and measure transfer rod gap. Should be right around 17mm (2/3") on a Vector, or midway on a ProAction skid. Once again, tightening spring preloads mainly raises the height and speeds up the rebound only, and does not stiffen the ride.

I wonder if this is causing an overly stiff ride when folks are adding preload to the center shock spring and setting their cams on soft. That will narrow the coupler gap causing the suspension to firm up earlier on bumps. If you think about it, by doing this you are adding height to the front of the track and taking it away at the rear making kind of a teeter-totter effect. You'd have to increase preload at the front shocks to try to counteract this, but it seems like all you are doing is raising the front of the sled and end up getting into the limiter straps a lot more.

Also, after taking out the rear shock I see that it is indeed a poor hydraulic unit with almost no compression dampening. Once compressed it stays compressed. Installing the gas charged Ohlins, I gained 3/4" free height at the rear bumper and 1/2" height while sitting on it but still seems soft with the clicker opened up. Can't wait to ride it awhile but nothing out there but mud!

 

[Blue Giant]

One last thought BG and probably a longshot. You didn't have your track sitting on a roller dolly when you were checking the rebound, did you? I replaced the rear shock on mine this morning, but before I did anything, I thought about this post and pushed down on the rear bumper a few times. I noticed that the compression stiffened up right away and not much travel or rebound. I then noticed that the transfer gap was very small and the straps were tight. It dawned on me that it was still on the dollys and the track dolly was toward the back compressing the rear suspension and extending the middle, coupling the suspension very early. I set the sled on the ground and gained more travel and rebound. If you have your torsion spring set on soft, maybe you don't have enough suspension height and travel before coupling. Sit on the sled and measure transfer rod gap. Should be right around 17mm (2/3") on a Vector, or midway on a ProAction skid. Once again, tightening spring preloads mainly raises the height and speeds up the rebound only, and does not stiffen the ride.

I wonder if this is causing an overly stiff ride when folks are adding preload to the center shock spring and setting their cams on soft. That will narrow the coupler gap causing the suspension to firm up earlier on bumps. If you think about it, by doing this you are adding height to the front of the track and taking it away at the rear making kind of a teeter-totter effect. You'd have to increase preload at the front shocks to try to counteract this, but it seems like all you are doing is raising the front of the sled and end up getting into the limiter straps a lot more.

Also, after taking out the rear shock I see that it is indeed a poor hydraulic unit with almost no compression dampening. Once compressed it stays compressed. Installing the gas charged Ohlins, I gained 3/4" free height at the rear bumper and 1/2" height while sitting on it but still seems soft with the clicker opened up. Can't wait to ride it awhile but nothing out there but mud!

Good Point!

I was in the middle of making my adjustment last night when I realized the sled was still on the dollies. I let it sit flat on the garage floor and rechecked it.

There is such a difference, compared to my friends Vector that is set up soft as well, that I am convinced there is something wrong with the rear shock.

 

[twomorestrokes]

I don't know if there's anything "wrong" with these steel rear shocks, but there's not much right with them either. A little archaic if you ask me. They don't do much as far as slowing down the compression or rebound, and who uses standard hydraulic shocks anymore? My '69 olds still has them, but everything's been gas charged for decades now.

 

[maxdlx]

So why not take the rear shock off, remove the spring, and see if there is any rebound to it. If it compreses way easy and doesn't return or returns way slow, there is a shock problem. All the setups in the world will do you no good if the shock is junk. Try to get your friend to let you borrow his shock, if it does the same thing in your sled, you have a bind somewhere. No sense wasting 10 days on set ups if it is a true suspension problem. Maxdlx

 

[Blue Giant]

There is no doubt in my mind that the problem is the POS rear shock. I'll let the dealer look after it. As far as I am concerned it better be covered under warranty as I have complained about this sled since day one!

I love the rest of the sled but because of the poor ride and handling the rest no longer matters!

 

[rupprider]

Heh Blue, for what it's worth, a shock went bad on my wife's sled years ago. One season it was ok, next fall the shock would only compress about halfway and you could hear a "clunk" internal in the shock. It was limiting the travel to about half of what it should be. Of course that was a completely different day and age, but the point being that a shock can be bad without any outside clue. RR edit: Wife's sled at that time was a 1979 Exciter 440. And yes, it was a OEM rear shock.RR