KnappAttack
24X ISR World Drag Racing Champion
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2004
- Messages
- 4,687
- Location
- Welch MN
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2023 Sidewinder LTX-LE
2017 Sidewinder LTX-LE
I got two sets of these things. One set for the Yamaha skis, and a set for my Pilots. I'm headed to the UP next Monday and just had the sled out with them mounted on my 6.9 Pilots. I got to say that I'm none to pleased. The sled wants to dart more than it does with the shaper bars on, also doesn't seem to want to turn as well. Go figure.
I'm really upset at the money I've wasted on skis and carbides right now, only to keep going back to the tried and true Doolys. They might push in the corners, but at least they don't dart. Maybe it's the conditions here at home right now, but I just can't chance them on a week long trip to the UP. Wished I could have no darting like the Doolys and the positive steering and reduced drag like a single carbide.
Can't believe I want to give up on these already.
UPDATE::::::::::::: After 975 miles in the UP, These things are absolutely amazing, They are the real deal. I had to take the shims out from behind the rubber ski snubbers and align the skis to parallel. It had too much heel pressure on them with the shims I had in to reduce darting with the shapers. These changes allow the rectifier to work on the front of the ski. Its now AWESOME. They truly do turn like a F1 car. I now need the 13mm swaybar to stop the body roll. No darting and finally, no push. So happy I didn't give up on them right away.
I'm really upset at the money I've wasted on skis and carbides right now, only to keep going back to the tried and true Doolys. They might push in the corners, but at least they don't dart. Maybe it's the conditions here at home right now, but I just can't chance them on a week long trip to the UP. Wished I could have no darting like the Doolys and the positive steering and reduced drag like a single carbide.
Can't believe I want to give up on these already.
UPDATE::::::::::::: After 975 miles in the UP, These things are absolutely amazing, They are the real deal. I had to take the shims out from behind the rubber ski snubbers and align the skis to parallel. It had too much heel pressure on them with the shims I had in to reduce darting with the shapers. These changes allow the rectifier to work on the front of the ski. Its now AWESOME. They truly do turn like a F1 car. I now need the 13mm swaybar to stop the body roll. No darting and finally, no push. So happy I didn't give up on them right away.
welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
I thought about making my own carbides.. like they use on the cats from the factory.. they are dualies but stagared so they cant plug up with snow..
I know this might be a stupid question expecially when talking to a guy with as much experience as you.. but did you check your ski alignment.. mine doesnt dart much at all with the pilots and 6 inch carbides all around..
I know this might be a stupid question expecially when talking to a guy with as much experience as you.. but did you check your ski alignment.. mine doesnt dart much at all with the pilots and 6 inch carbides all around..
kviper
VIP Member
Wow! Don't know what to tell you. I don't know about the Pilot's but they are awesome on my Yamaha ski's, Absolutely 0 darting. Do you have toe set at 0? Also have you tried them on the Yamaha ski's? I had them on my 06 GT and now on my 07 Attak, No darting on either and they bite like nothing else i have tried. Did you get the extreme's or the trail version? I put the trail's on my son's Phazer and wish i had gotten the extreme's, They track good but push some and may turn a bit harder. kviper
Len Todd
TY 4 Stroke God
They didn't look like something that would turn easily. Thanks for the honest report. A lot of folks wouldn't be that honest, right after they sunk a bucnh of $s into something.
welterracer
TY 4 Stroke God
anything that sticks that far into snow has to turn hard.. just my opinion
kviper
VIP Member
I don't know what is going on but i have many mile's on the extreme version and have had many friend's try them and they all could not believe how well the sled handled. I have no reason to lie about them and nothing to gain by lying about them. When i got the first set i thought what did i wizz my money away on now but i tried them and could not beleave how well they worked. Maybe they don't work well on the pilot's?
cat hunter
TY 4 Stroke Junkie
I've no experiece with pilot skies but we have 3 sleds with SNOW TRACKERS on and no darting and corner great.Our sleds all have factory skies ,06 Apex Gt.,05 Vector,05 Cat F6. My Apex skies are shimmed and set at 0 toe in and we use the semi aggressive type on all 3 sleds. Was sledding with my chum last weekend with his brand new 800 XP with Pilots and he was all over the trail and up on 1 ski in the corners when I was straight and flat and could have passed him at any time in the bush.I'm sure if anyone can get them to work right you can !!! 
z28rx1
Extreme
All i can say is they work for me. Ive tryed simmons( that worked great) on my rx1 but not on my attak. Snotrackers WORK on MY attak. Not sure why they dont on yours but????
trailmarker
Extreme
i just bought a pair and havent had time to install them on my pilots, now i'm worried. i bought the extreme for my GT. KNAPP did you leave on the outside carbide? what is your toe in/out?
KnappAttack
24X ISR World Drag Racing Champion
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2004
- Messages
- 4,687
- Location
- Welch MN
- Country
- USA
- Snowmobile
- 2023 Sidewinder LTX-LE
2017 Sidewinder LTX-LE
I have the aligned the skis from parallel, and adjusted from 1/8", 1/4" and 1/2" toe out. I've now settled on 1/8" toe out with sled sitting on ground, slight bungee pull on ski loops to take the slop away from ball joints.
Here is what I think. I really notice the darting and push to be a teeter totter effect. You can get rid of the darting but you end up with push. You can on the other hand get rid of the push and end up with darting. Now I know what one person thinks is no darting, ends up being another persons darting like crazy. Or maybe the conditions are different. This is one huge reason I believe we see the differences in opinion on these skis and carbides.
Heres a list of what I've tried.
1. Stock skis with single carbides (terrible darting)
2. Stock skis with Doolys
3. Stock skis shimmed with 1/4" rubber on heel & Doolys (Best at eliminating the darting so far)
4. 6.9 Pilots with shaper bars
5. 6.9 Pilots with snowtrackers
6. 6.9 pilots with Bergstroms and ski savers. (This combo still darted and really pushed)
7. Precisions with 6" in and out
8. Simmons with 6" in and out
9. The pipe mod mentioned in a sticky atop this forum. (not good at all)(sort of reminds me of the snowtracker rectifier piece)
10. Yamaha Mountains I have not run yet. (snowtrackers won't fit this set as 2 bolts are to short)
This is how I really notice this stuff. I have a very bad neck and back that should have surgery done. It gets very sore after a couple hundred miles trying to hold my head up. I'll do close to 300 miles a day if the sled doesn't dart. If it's darting, its hard to do 150 miles per day. Also have a bad left elbow that dosnt have much strength left. I need a sled that has NO darting if I'm going to go all day. I know, its hell to get old.
Every time I try a new combo in the UP, I end up going back to the doolys and 1/4 shims on the stocks skis. The darting really shows up on these trails, in these conditions for some reason. The Exception has been the 6.9 pilots. The last couple of trips I have left them on for the whole trip. The shaper bars allow this combo to turn nice but the darting is much more than I would like. The Last trip I tried the Bergstroms and ski savers on the 6.9's. This combo really pushed and although the darting was reduced, it was not eliminated. From the reports here about the Snowtrackers, I figured this would be the solution to be free of the darting and the push. But from this 30 mile ride I just had here now breaking in a new belt. I can see this isn't the resolution I was hoping for. I can only wonder if the Slim Jim from Woodys may help with the push from the Doolys. Problem is were headed out Monday so I have not time to place an order to try them out next week.
I really want to run the 6.9 pilots for flotation as they look decent and float on the powder very well. Problem is they don't make Dooly's, Slim Jims, or Deuce bars for them.
I have tried suspension setting changes and this does help, but only to a certain point. The key to darting and push is in the carbide and to a lesser degree, the ski.
Best non darting for me has been to add a 1/4" rubber shim at the rear of the ski rubber and run the 8" Woodys Doolys. However, as the corners get tighter, the sled pushes far to much. Don't have to worry about ski lift as you can't corner fast enough to get up on one ski.
I wonder if its possible to have to much heel pressure with the snowtrackers? I'm still running a 1/4" rubber shim on the pilots also. Hard to believe that would hurt it but maybe that is what that rectifier is for on the front of the ski. It's backwards of everything I've been taught and learned about darting. The pressure should be towards the back of the ski, not the front. Also using the stock 4" outside carbide on the Pilot, although it is a long way from the plane of the deep Snowtracker. Steering effort is fine, Just darts around a whole bunch more than the shaper bars did and weird as its sounds seems to push more. Don't know how this is possible the Snowtracker being as deep as it is.
kviper, do you run any additional shims (heel pressure) on your setup with the Yamaha skis? Maybe your right about not working on the Pilots. Hard to imagine though, as looking at them I don't see much of a difference for either setup. I didn't want to use them as I could still sell them as new for the Yamaha skis, but maybe I should give them a go. Damn, I have over $450 invested with shipping in both of these sets.
One more thing I should add is, the Pilots are the deeper Extremes 3/16" wide and 1 1/16" deep. The set for the Yamaha skis are 1" deep and 1/4" wide. I thought they were both Extremes.
Here is what I think. I really notice the darting and push to be a teeter totter effect. You can get rid of the darting but you end up with push. You can on the other hand get rid of the push and end up with darting. Now I know what one person thinks is no darting, ends up being another persons darting like crazy. Or maybe the conditions are different. This is one huge reason I believe we see the differences in opinion on these skis and carbides.
Heres a list of what I've tried.
1. Stock skis with single carbides (terrible darting)
2. Stock skis with Doolys
3. Stock skis shimmed with 1/4" rubber on heel & Doolys (Best at eliminating the darting so far)
4. 6.9 Pilots with shaper bars
5. 6.9 Pilots with snowtrackers
6. 6.9 pilots with Bergstroms and ski savers. (This combo still darted and really pushed)
7. Precisions with 6" in and out
8. Simmons with 6" in and out
9. The pipe mod mentioned in a sticky atop this forum. (not good at all)(sort of reminds me of the snowtracker rectifier piece)
10. Yamaha Mountains I have not run yet. (snowtrackers won't fit this set as 2 bolts are to short)
This is how I really notice this stuff. I have a very bad neck and back that should have surgery done. It gets very sore after a couple hundred miles trying to hold my head up. I'll do close to 300 miles a day if the sled doesn't dart. If it's darting, its hard to do 150 miles per day. Also have a bad left elbow that dosnt have much strength left. I need a sled that has NO darting if I'm going to go all day. I know, its hell to get old.
Every time I try a new combo in the UP, I end up going back to the doolys and 1/4 shims on the stocks skis. The darting really shows up on these trails, in these conditions for some reason. The Exception has been the 6.9 pilots. The last couple of trips I have left them on for the whole trip. The shaper bars allow this combo to turn nice but the darting is much more than I would like. The Last trip I tried the Bergstroms and ski savers on the 6.9's. This combo really pushed and although the darting was reduced, it was not eliminated. From the reports here about the Snowtrackers, I figured this would be the solution to be free of the darting and the push. But from this 30 mile ride I just had here now breaking in a new belt. I can see this isn't the resolution I was hoping for. I can only wonder if the Slim Jim from Woodys may help with the push from the Doolys. Problem is were headed out Monday so I have not time to place an order to try them out next week.
I really want to run the 6.9 pilots for flotation as they look decent and float on the powder very well. Problem is they don't make Dooly's, Slim Jims, or Deuce bars for them.
I have tried suspension setting changes and this does help, but only to a certain point. The key to darting and push is in the carbide and to a lesser degree, the ski.
Best non darting for me has been to add a 1/4" rubber shim at the rear of the ski rubber and run the 8" Woodys Doolys. However, as the corners get tighter, the sled pushes far to much. Don't have to worry about ski lift as you can't corner fast enough to get up on one ski.
I wonder if its possible to have to much heel pressure with the snowtrackers? I'm still running a 1/4" rubber shim on the pilots also. Hard to believe that would hurt it but maybe that is what that rectifier is for on the front of the ski. It's backwards of everything I've been taught and learned about darting. The pressure should be towards the back of the ski, not the front. Also using the stock 4" outside carbide on the Pilot, although it is a long way from the plane of the deep Snowtracker. Steering effort is fine, Just darts around a whole bunch more than the shaper bars did and weird as its sounds seems to push more. Don't know how this is possible the Snowtracker being as deep as it is.
kviper, do you run any additional shims (heel pressure) on your setup with the Yamaha skis? Maybe your right about not working on the Pilots. Hard to imagine though, as looking at them I don't see much of a difference for either setup. I didn't want to use them as I could still sell them as new for the Yamaha skis, but maybe I should give them a go. Damn, I have over $450 invested with shipping in both of these sets.
One more thing I should add is, the Pilots are the deeper Extremes 3/16" wide and 1 1/16" deep. The set for the Yamaha skis are 1" deep and 1/4" wide. I thought they were both Extremes.
darting
Mike i have tried several setups i am now running stock skies, 1/4 inch rubber shim on heal, one accord? duely on the left ski, right ski stock 4 inch carbite, the duely is quite wide maybe 1 1/2 inchs wide between the carbites. this has no darting at any snow conditions, it does has some push, i still will have inside skilift if i push it hard enough. I dont know if it pushes as much as yours or not. I can live with the push i have can live with the darting. Jeff
Mike i have tried several setups i am now running stock skies, 1/4 inch rubber shim on heal, one accord? duely on the left ski, right ski stock 4 inch carbite, the duely is quite wide maybe 1 1/2 inchs wide between the carbites. this has no darting at any snow conditions, it does has some push, i still will have inside skilift if i push it hard enough. I dont know if it pushes as much as yours or not. I can live with the push i have can live with the darting. Jeff
you have two, make that three options,
1 get a set of cat offset duallies from a cat dealer and reweld two of the studs so they fit.
they will not dart and wont pack with snow and ice so they dont push any where near as bad as the dualies
2. get the qualie pieces version of a cat offset dualie from any dealer that sells qualies. these are the same thing but way more money and they make the carbide longer and the host bar is deaper and square. you would still need to modify them to bolt on.
3. Arrow skis will give you the dualie straight lin tracking but wont help you out on the floatation. they are similar to the footprint of the stock ski.
You seem to be on the same Quest I have been on.
1 get a set of cat offset duallies from a cat dealer and reweld two of the studs so they fit.
they will not dart and wont pack with snow and ice so they dont push any where near as bad as the dualies
2. get the qualie pieces version of a cat offset dualie from any dealer that sells qualies. these are the same thing but way more money and they make the carbide longer and the host bar is deaper and square. you would still need to modify them to bolt on.
3. Arrow skis will give you the dualie straight lin tracking but wont help you out on the floatation. they are similar to the footprint of the stock ski.
You seem to be on the same Quest I have been on.
northernguy10
Extreme
snowtracker's
I had 03 renegade 800 that rode like a couch, steering like it was on rails.but at 12000 plus km I started to worry! I bought a 2006 Yamaha attak my first 4 stroke.( a few friends had rx1's) great motor, crapy suspension and #*$&@ steering. In my first year I bought woody duelly's , shaper bars. Still crapy steering (pushs,darted) found totally Yamaha ............read a bunch of post on how to fix my problem started to play with the suspension. Then I tried a set of sly dogs skis from a friend ( he like them) took his skis but them on my sled & was impressed. tried to get a set for my self, but I was leaving on a trip few days later and needed something! bought "snow tracker" it wasn't til I got home that I saw what I had done!! $189.99 cad, this looklike a scamed . I didn't want to alter my skis if it didn't worked. still felt like a sucker from the purchase! The day before my trip I decide to install them to try them out . on the snow not moving could not steer until I started move went about 15 km in the twisty. got a little braver as I went. these things work ! went on my trip and beat these thing hard for a week of riding from hard pack to new snow all I can say is these thing are great. My slydogs came in and I haven't installed them yet. ( hope you find your problem knapp) sorry if I spelled it wrong
I had 03 renegade 800 that rode like a couch, steering like it was on rails.but at 12000 plus km I started to worry! I bought a 2006 Yamaha attak my first 4 stroke.( a few friends had rx1's) great motor, crapy suspension and #*$&@ steering. In my first year I bought woody duelly's , shaper bars. Still crapy steering (pushs,darted) found totally Yamaha ............read a bunch of post on how to fix my problem started to play with the suspension. Then I tried a set of sly dogs skis from a friend ( he like them) took his skis but them on my sled & was impressed. tried to get a set for my self, but I was leaving on a trip few days later and needed something! bought "snow tracker" it wasn't til I got home that I saw what I had done!! $189.99 cad, this looklike a scamed . I didn't want to alter my skis if it didn't worked. still felt like a sucker from the purchase! The day before my trip I decide to install them to try them out . on the snow not moving could not steer until I started move went about 15 km in the twisty. got a little braver as I went. these things work ! went on my trip and beat these thing hard for a week of riding from hard pack to new snow all I can say is these thing are great. My slydogs came in and I haven't installed them yet. ( hope you find your problem knapp) sorry if I spelled it wrong
Another Phase
Extreme
Can't comment on the Pilots, but I run Snowtracker extremes on stock ski's with 1/4" shim and can ride down the trail with one hand on the bars at any speed. Tried Dually's, then Deuce bars, then Snowtrackers. Cornering improved, steering effort was reduced and darting dereased each time with Snowtrackers performing the best in each area.
Len Todd
TY 4 Stroke God
Misery loves company? 
Or, ... Would you believe that; I knew we would get a lot of comments to our posts.
Or, ... Would you believe that; I knew we would get a lot of comments to our posts.
