Phazer/Genesis 80FI for mini Formula Car

[jsteinm1]

Hello everyone!

I am the powertrain team leader for the University of Nebraska's Formula SAE team. I did some searching on your forums and saw other teams had posted here before. For those of you who don't know, Formula SAE is a competition where schools build a mini formula style car using 610CC maximum engines with 19mm restrictors (for E85 fuel, which we are using).

Anyway, we are considering using a Genesis 80FI motor donated from a Phazer. I'm looking for parts or ways that we can ramp up the performance of this motor running ethanol. I believe I've seen around here that you can use YZ250F pistons in the Genesis, can any confirm this? If so, I found these which would be great for our purposes http://www.campbellenterprises.com/part ... rt&id=3183 .

I've seen that boring the engine is out on here, however, what are some other good performance parts sites for these engines. Also we will be a N/A engine, I'd love to turbo but we don't have the time to do so at the moment.

Thanks guys!
- Jay

 

[marpolsdofer]

I like Monster Karts more.
They should be built with race bike engines, such Honda CBR 1000 even the 600 is fast. And if use a bike you will have the transmission and some components taking care off.

I cant remember what site it was but there is a university that made a Genesis engine just for the Econ, has turbo, different engine components, and will run on ethanol. I will post it when I fond it. Not to long its 30 page PDF I think.

Way better I think

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owe7POAdaVs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fRAzNbch ... re=related

 

[jsteinm1]

We're in the process of selecting the engine that includes the Kawasaki ZX-6R and KTM 525cc as well as the Genesis. The problem with the ZX-6R (and all sport bikes) is the weight and restrictor. They're heavy motors compared to these smaller ones. And when you bring that restrictor into the game, they are barely more capable of making power. They can be very powerful, if the time and money is spent to rework the engine for its new, lower RPM sweet spot.

Given our agenda, were primarily after saving weight, and thats why we'll likely not end up with a sportbike engine.

 

[cannondale27]

Porting and cam timing just cost labor.Clutching is really important also.Should be good gains there.

 

[jsteinm1]

Another question if anyone knows: Should we decide to use one, what are good places to find salvaged ones? I've check salvage direct and iaai.com, which have some periodically, but the more I have to chose from the better.

 

[yamahas]

The classifieds section. There are a few part out sled up there, you may be lucky to get an engine. They do seem to go fast since it is a popular engine for this type of work. Even read about them in small plane/glider set up.

http://www.ty4stroke.com/viewforum.php?f=83

 

[marpolsdofer]

There you go Re-engineered
http://www.mtukrc.org/download/niu/niu_ ... r_2009.pdf

Yes the Ristrictor can be but it you did not have that I would still use race bike engines.

CBR600-105 HP for engines old then 2007 RR's. That Monster kart was pulling 170 HP and 170 MPH when it was built and they used everything from the bike but it is a 1000'cc RR.

Even if the engine is a bit heavier you would want that for traction but you do and spoilers to create down force but remember it only work at speed.

If you building mini F1's would you not want high RPM like the real ones?

 

[porkchop]

My buddy runs a Polaris 600 twin in his water X sled thats putting out 152 HP. It's got some internal work done, custom twin stinger pipes, clutched with some secret weights, geared, non factory carbs, runs on C114 octane race fuel.

Why not go with something like that? 80 VS maybe 140+ hp in a 2 stroke done up some?
Those motors are a dime a dozen to find/ cheap, simple to work on, reliable if the knowledge of mechanics is there.
Under my buddy's hood is basically an engine, clutches, belt, 4 drain hoses and some needed wiring to keep it going. Mixes the gas/ oil- Keeps it simple...

Just a thought as you had to be under the 610 cc mark. Good luck with your project.

 

[blueironranger]

Are you limited to ONE 19mm for the whole engine or one 19mm for each cylinder? a single 19mm (3/4") hole for airflow doesn't allow for much power, if its one per cylinder then I'd look for a 4 cylinder bike motor. If your allowed 2 19mm restrictors I still probably wouldn't pick the Phazer motor, I'd probibly look at building a 610cc Vtwin and keeping the revs down to build monster torque. The phazer engine doesn't come to life until 6000rpm which about all the 19mm holes would flow.

 

[jsteinm1]

it is one restrictor per motor. The fact that the sportbikes are 100+ HP is nearly irrelevant. When that restrictor is put on, its going to set the bike back to roughly 60HP. High revs is also far from ideal. The higher the revs the higher the airflow must be, and again, the restrictor will put a stop on that at a certain point. This is why the genesis 80fi is in consideration, good power and light weight. I'd imagine it'd be close to the same output as a sportbike when the restrictor is on, plus being lighter which is huge for these. We don't want or need the weight for traction, an 80HP (hopefully) motor with slicks on will be near impossible to break free, and spoilers won't do much since all the comps are generally below 60mph.

My biggest concern with the engine is increasing the compression ratio. Does anyone know if those pistons will work with the engine?

 

[cannondale27]

Are you running E85?If so raising compression and tuning almost 30% richer above partial throttle will help.Otherwise leave compression stock.I have not heard of anyone trying different pistons yet.Lot of talk but no one has really done internal mods at all.Sorry.Why not just shave the head since it wouldnt take much to achieve 13-14:1?The stock pistons seem to be very durable and are very light weight.Weak link is the rods.

 

[marpolsdofer]

So the fact that the WWU FORMULA SAE Viking 43 runs a Honda 600cc sport bike engine weight is 460 lbs and puts out 90 HP on restricted runs 14,000 RPM makes it irrelevant? Restricted to 100 MPH but it can run 0-60 in 3.5.
From what I been reading bike engines are the most common.
Lighter is not always better if you to light you will not get traction. Take running for example a 180 lbs person that has same athletic build as me can accelerate quicker then me on a sprint but I am overall faster. A 230 lbs person accelerates slightly slower them me and over all slower them me. Off course the spoilers wont help any at your speeds. Even in drag racing with slicks, HP, Weight, down force, all the other factors. If you are to light you tires will spin on the line and while down the track. If you coming on a corers and you spin the tires this will hurt you.

Just what I took from Wikipedia (and yes I know it not always creatable)
The engine must be a four-stroke, Otto-cycle piston engine with a displacement no greater than 610cc. An air restrictor of circular cross-section must be fitted downstream of the throttle and upstream of any compressor, no greater than 20mm for gasoline engines or 19mm for ethanol-fueled engines. The restrictor keeps power levels below 100 hp in the vast majority of FSAE cars. Most commonly, production four-cylinder 600cc sport bike motors are used due to their availability and displacement, however many teams have also used smaller V-twin and single-cylinder engines. Though it is permitted, very rarely do teams build an engine from scratch, such as Western Washington University's 554cc V8 entry in 2001.

 

[sortastock]

Hey I ran a Phazer engine in my 2009 FSAE car. we had very good results with it. Oh except I blew it up in the endurance race. We put a blower on it and ran our own sequential fuel injection system, which was the pitfall of the car, as it turns out.

And for what it's worth, we absolutely blew a lot of well known bike engine-powered cars out of the water. I didn't follow the jogger analogy that someone else mentioned- a quick look at tractive effort curves will clear up any doubts that being quick revving, light weight is faster than heavy...

The only disadvantage you have is the 110 cc's...but that can be easily overcome...

Oh, and the CVT if properly tuned is quicker than sequential trans. Every time I caught cars I was coming out of corners onto straight aways. It was like they hit the brakes everytime they shifted.

I bought the car from the university, so right now I'm working on rebuilding the thing so I can get it out on the track.

shoot me an email if you want to talk more about the car kroggenkamp [at] ariens.com

kyle

 

[sortastock]

it is one restrictor per motor. The fact that the sportbikes are 100+ HP is nearly irrelevant. When that restrictor is put on, its going to set the bike back to roughly 60HP. High revs is also far from ideal. The higher the revs the higher the airflow must be, and again, the restrictor will put a stop on that at a certain point. This is why the genesis 80fi is in consideration, good power and light weight. I'd imagine it'd be close to the same output as a sportbike when the restrictor is on, plus being lighter which is huge for these. We don't want or need the weight for traction, an 80HP (hopefully) motor with slicks on will be near impossible to break free, and spoilers won't do much since all the comps are generally below 60mph.

My biggest concern with the engine is increasing the compression ratio. Does anyone know if those pistons will work with the engine?

Sorry to repost, but yes, there are other pistons out there for the phazer. It can also be over-bored to about 540cc. And if you've got a little extra cash around, you can also get Ti valves for these engines. Be careful if you overbore, there is not much material between these engines to begin with.

I didn't have the opportunity to design new cams for it, but I think some significant gains could be had there. Yamaha didn't leave much on the table for porting, so we didn't spend time on it.

Oh, and this engine with a blower WILL break the tires loose! It's a blast actually. We had a hard time launching the thing because we had to keep the engagement higher than we wanted...

 

[porkchop]

Hey I ran a Phazer engine in my 2009 FSAE car.

I bought the car from the university, so right now I'm working on rebuilding the thing so I can get it out on the track.

kyle

Sounds like fun, got any pics of these things?