Real World 1500 Mile Low Down of new Ski Doo XR-S 900 Turbo vs. SideWinder

[Doc Harley]

Joe, Im pretty sure no one is knocking the 900t. I think the confusion comes from not knowing where it lays in the line up.

Skidoo doesn't want to be the 850 Slayer. In terms of sales, just yet.

Skidoo guys need it to slay the 998t. And that's not looking good.

Dootalk guys don't know what to make of it. But some of the die-hards (you know them) need this one to do everything. Slay the dragon while achieving 20mpg & all with a warranty in tact. Haha.....

Once this sled goes into production it's going to be, probably, the most balanced 4s to Grace the trail. And should flood the market and trails.

Can the 900t deliver? We're going to have to wait 1yr to find that out. Right now it's just a guessing game.

You should have kept the sidewinder, just in case. But that's none of my business.

 

[journeyman]

Once this sled goes into production it's going to be, probably, the most balanced 4s to Grace the trail. And should flood the market and trails.

As pointed out, VX1R (Don) started this thread. If Arctic Cat and Yamaha took Don's custom Sidewinder for a spin on the trails and did the simple upgrades to the stock models he did you would have it right there.

With the Mohawk skis, the Hygear Custom Axis shocks and Z-Broz widening kit, that has to be the most perfect sled I have driven to date. Flat cornering, no searching or darting and butter smooth ride. Not to mention the Storm track and clutching which made for some serious hook up and hard, but linear acceleration.

https://ty4stroke.com/threads/my-season-so-far-on-the-sw.152714/

At this point they have close to a perfect machine, just a few upgrades away and they'd have it.

 

[STAIN]

I have not heard of any problems with the 1200 motor.

I researched these 1200's before purchasing my Viper. it seems that water pump issues seem to be the biggest problem

 

[ROCKERDAN]

The MAIN issue with the 900t will be the iTC.

For those that dont know, iTC(Intelligent throttle control) also known as "drive by wire" was developed on the 4s doo to help FIX the design. BRP uses a ultra long intake which has the SINGLE throttle body over 12 inches away from pistons(see pic below) Due to how BRP mounts their 4s engines(very low and set back) for best handling characteristics, their 4s end up utilizing a very long intake tract, totally opposite of our YAM 4s instake where our throttle bodies are located ultra close to the pistons. The 1200(pre 2016) had a normal throttle, and it was always said to have a "delay" by the magz. Most 1200 owners had no issue with this whatsoever.

BRP started with iTC on the ACE model, and then incorporated iTC into the 1200 4tec in 2016(I owned one). In 2016, the 1200 with iTC did have a learning curve, however I found that in sport mode, the iTC turned the 1200 into a corner to corner/ Knoll jumping/ski lifting animal! Once used to the flipper(far less pressure therefore ZERO fatigue on long days) we all felt it was a hit!

What I keep reading over and over by Mag writers, Demo riders ect....is all about the iTC. IMO BRP has not been able to modulate it on a TURBO engine. Where it works very well on a NA engine, they seem to be having a real issue dialing in the characteristics in conjunction with how a turbo makes power. Just about every single writer, and demo rider comes away saying the same thing about the iTC.

This is where the YAM 4s and turbos are king, and always will be. Reverse mounted engine, all big heat is relegated to the MAG side or rear side with header,turbo and muffler all opposite from intake and clutches. DOO is taking a diff approach with their turbo, highly heat wrapped and mounted directly to engine, but the intake tract is still ultra long, and so iTC MUST be used to make it snappy enough, but they will be fighting this to get it to "feel" right IMO for awhile. YAM did it right, intake is ultra short making for the best instant revving 4s on market, the 1200 is often said to be a killer engine, and VERY stout! All true.......but the intake being too long was its downside IMO, and why when I rode any pre 16 1200 It never felt as instant as a YAM 4s NA.

Im watching this new 900t closely, and could see myself on one down the road possibly(very hard to come down from the big power however) But anyone buying this FIRST SEASON, I really think you are asking to be the guinea pigs on this iTC in conjunction with turbo first yr design. Its going to be an intersting season next yr for sure. All those guys going on and on how they liked their iTC, they are comparing iTC NA to next yrs turbo, which is something that is not a foregone conclusion. I loved my iTC 1200, but will stay far away from a first season iTC turbo.

Dan

 

[Doc Harley]

Journeyman, one problem with Yamaha.

Marketing.

 

[XP123]

Joe, Im pretty sure no one is knocking the 900t. I think the confusion comes from not knowing where it lays in the line up.

Skidoo doesn't want to be the 850 Slayer. In terms of sales, just yet.

Skidoo guys need it to slay the 998t. And that's not looking good.

Dootalk guys don't know what to make of it. But some of the die-hards (you know them) need this one to do everything. Slay the dragon while achieving 20mpg & all with a warranty in tact. Haha.....

Once this sled goes into production it's going to be, probably, the most balanced 4s to Grace the trail. And should flood the market and trails.

Can the 900t deliver? We're going to have to wait 1yr to find that out. Right now it's just a guessing game.

You should have kept the sidewinder, just in case. But that's none of my business.

Why would anybody think the 900T with 50 less hp would be competition for the Winder? As of right now I have not committed to getting rid of it. I like my Winder but truthfully I bought it because I wanted to feel that unlimited power and the Yamaha engine really intrigued me. It met all my expectations but now that I have experienced it I have no problem moving on from it. I have found that I'm no longer the speed junky I once was and what I enjoy most is saddlebag trips up in Quebec with my Wife and friends. The 900T I think will have all the power I need and I think when ridden at trail speeds will get incredible mileage. From what I hear it should be a blast to ride on the trails.

 

[DMCTurbo]

In my opinion all sleds are good these days. You just need to find the one that best suits you and get out and enjoy it.

 

[74Nitro]

The MAIN issue with the 900t will be the iTC.

For those that dont know, iTC(Intelligent throttle control) also known as "drive by wire" was developed on the 4s doo to help FIX the design. BRP uses a ultra long intake which has the SINGLE throttle body over 12 inches away from pistons(see pic below) Due to how BRP mounts their 4s engines(very low and set back) for best handling characteristics, their 4s end up utilizing a very long intake tract, totally opposite of our YAM 4s instake where our throttle bodies are located ultra close to the pistons. The 1200(pre 2016) had a normal throttle, and it was always said to have a "delay" by the magz. Most 1200 owners had no issue with this whatsoever.

BRP started with iTC on the ACE model, and then incorporated iTC into the 1200 4tec in 2016(I owned one). In 2016, the 1200 with iTC did have a learning curve, however I found that in sport mode, the iTC turned the 1200 into a corner to corner/ Knoll jumping/ski lifting animal! Once used to the flipper(far less pressure therefore ZERO fatigue on long days) we all felt it was a hit!

What I keep reading over and over by Mag writers, Demo riders ect....is all about the iTC. IMO BRP has not been able to modulate it on a TURBO engine. Where it works very well on a NA engine, they seem to be having a real issue dialing in the characteristics in conjunction with how a turbo makes power. Just about every single writer, and demo rider comes away saying the same thing about the iTC.

This is where the YAM 4s and turbos are king, and always will be. Reverse mounted engine, all big heat is relegated to the MAG side or rear side with header,turbo and muffler all opposite from intake and clutches. DOO is taking a diff approach with their turbo, highly heat wrapped and mounted directly to engine, but the intake tract is still ultra long, and so iTC MUST be used to make it snappy enough, but they will be fighting this to get it to "feel" right IMO for awhile. YAM did it right, intake is ultra short making for the best instant revving 4s on market, the 1200 is often said to be a killer engine, and VERY stout! All true.......but the intake being too long was its downside IMO, and why when I rode any pre 16 1200 It never felt as instant as a YAM 4s NA.

Im watching this new 900t closely, and could see myself on one down the road possibly(very hard to come down from the big power however) But anyone buying this FIRST SEASON, I really think you are asking to be the guinea pigs on this iTC in conjunction with turbo first yr design. Its going to be an intersting season next yr for sure. All those guys going on and on how they liked their iTC, they are comparing iTC NA to next yrs turbo, which is something that is not a foregone conclusion. I loved my iTC 1200, but will stay far away from a first season iTC turbo.

Dan

Dan, there sure is a lot of volume between the butterfly valve compared to the Winder layout of individuals.
One of the things I have come to appreciate on the Winder is the instant throttle response.

 

[WVTurboLTX]

The MAIN issue with the 900t will be the iTC.

For those that dont know, iTC(Intelligent throttle control) also known as "drive by wire" was developed on the 4s doo to help FIX the design. BRP uses a ultra long intake which has the SINGLE throttle body over 12 inches away from pistons(see pic below) Due to how BRP mounts their 4s engines(very low and set back) for best handling characteristics, their 4s end up utilizing a very long intake tract, totally opposite of our YAM 4s instake where our throttle bodies are located ultra close to the pistons. The 1200(pre 2016) had a normal throttle, and it was always said to have a "delay" by the magz. Most 1200 owners had no issue with this whatsoever.

BRP started with iTC on the ACE model, and then incorporated iTC into the 1200 4tec in 2016(I owned one). In 2016, the 1200 with iTC did have a learning curve, however I found that in sport mode, the iTC turned the 1200 into a corner to corner/ Knoll jumping/ski lifting animal! Once used to the flipper(far less pressure therefore ZERO fatigue on long days) we all felt it was a hit!

What I keep reading over and over by Mag writers, Demo riders ect....is all about the iTC. IMO BRP has not been able to modulate it on a TURBO engine. Where it works very well on a NA engine, they seem to be having a real issue dialing in the characteristics in conjunction with how a turbo makes power. Just about every single writer, and demo rider comes away saying the same thing about the iTC.

This is where the YAM 4s and turbos are king, and always will be. Reverse mounted engine, all big heat is relegated to the MAG side or rear side with header,turbo and muffler all opposite from intake and clutches. DOO is taking a diff approach with their turbo, highly heat wrapped and mounted directly to engine, but the intake tract is still ultra long, and so iTC MUST be used to make it snappy enough, but they will be fighting this to get it to "feel" right IMO for awhile. YAM did it right, intake is ultra short making for the best instant revving 4s on market, the 1200 is often said to be a killer engine, and VERY stout! All true.......but the intake being too long was its downside IMO, and why when I rode any pre 16 1200 It never felt as instant as a YAM 4s NA.

Im watching this new 900t closely, and could see myself on one down the road possibly(very hard to come down from the big power however) But anyone buying this FIRST SEASON, I really think you are asking to be the guinea pigs on this iTC in conjunction with turbo first yr design. Its going to be an intersting season next yr for sure. All those guys going on and on how they liked their iTC, they are comparing iTC NA to next yrs turbo, which is something that is not a foregone conclusion. I loved my iTC 1200, but will stay far away from a first season iTC turbo.

Dan

My buddy has the cable 1200 and his wife has an ITC 900. I don't like the throttle response on either. The 900 is better than the 1200 but it's still there. I don't understand how anyone can't notice it on the older 1200s though. When loading the sled for him I can blip the throttle and the sled doesn't move till it has returned to the bars.

 

[stevewithOCD]

Don stirred up some emotions on this one didn't he?

Let's review what we think we know so far. Or at least my opinion of what we know.

1. The 900T was not designed to run with the 'Winder
2. BRP will not design a 4-stroke to beat their own 2-stroke (not yet anyways)
3. BRP canned the awesome 1200 to have their own fully BRP or ROTAX engine
4. It's possible this 900T will be better calibrated once delivered and maybe the 150 hp is a fib
5. DOO has incredible marketing
6. Yamaha has pathetic marketing
7. KNAPP is still grumpy
8. Dan only posted 1 pic & 5 paragraph's which means......spring has sprung

 

[KnappAttack]

This sounds just like the response I got from you last year over on DooTalk Mike. Only difference is you were talking about the Winder and not the 900 Doo Not much has changed, or has it?

Nope, not much has changed. The 998 still is still in a POS Cat chassis with Cat DNA, not much has changed there, difference is the Winder is much better riding and handling than the 2012 POS Cat turbo I owned that had a Suzuki twin in it, that thing handled and rode like crap. The Doo still has the best chassis and best quality built in no doubt.

The thing is Doo failed to bring what I had asked for, and that is a 200+ HP SideWinder equal. If they'd have done that, I would have had one ordered already.

Instead, they brought something that could have been had without the turbo (150 HP four-stroke) and just a bump in power without all the complexity of the added turbo and the associated components and without the added cost involved. Such a shame they didn't bring something that is worthy of having a turbo on it like the robust 1200 engine.

That ultra wimpy 900 is, and always will be, a poor choice for a turbo addition. The turbo should have been added to a robust &/or downsized 1200 engine before it was ever added to the 900. Its such a waste of effort on BRP's part honestly.

The ultimate package would be a four cylinder Apex in the Doo chassis with a turbo with a Cat front end on it. Now that would be the ultimate machine!

 

[VX1R]

I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that during any of our remaining riding years that we will never see another snowmobile OEM surpass the performance levels that Yamaha has achieved with the Turbo 998 powerplant that is in the SideWinder.

The innovation and engineering marvel of that motor will never be exceed in the snowmobile industry.

I believe that the ROI is going to keep everyone else at bay at the OEM level, even BRP.

Go here if you need a memory reset: http://snowmobiles.yamahablogs.ca/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Gensis-Turbo-FINAL.pdf

 

[Sasquatch]

My Winder doesn't have an unexpected power burst. It does what my thumb tells it to do.
I think what Basset is saying is that you could be holding the throttle at a certain position, and without adding more throttle, the engine gives more power/RPM's 'unexpectedly'. That is why he compares it to the old triple/triple Cat 800. Another old sled that had this horrid trait was the first Polaris non-power valved triple/triple 600's.
I get what he is saying.

I had both the 800 triple Cat and the 1,000 triple Cat! They where so docile and controllable I let my 12 year old kids ride em around while we fished! If anything compared to the Warrior and Apex they reacted predictably with the ability to back off the throttle and still maintain speed, On the throttle spool up and and accelerate, while the Yamahas where more electric like running a slot car! Weird!

 

[Sasquatch]

Yamaha claimed 180hp, but in reality delivered 200+
Maybe Doo is doing the same, claim 150 but deliver 170+

Is there dyno reports of the production SW at 200? Or is that still based on a pre production like the Apex at 163!

 

[dgjr636]

I can only hope Yamaha is far from done using a R1/Apex motor in sleds. The Crossplane crank R1 engine is even better than the Apex Engine ever was for tork and over all usable performance.

Coming to you soon will be their new R1/DT race car.
If only Yamaha has the guts to put this in a sled!!!!

For you gearheads out there. Search Yamaha R1DT on the web.