Ride or Bust...Apex XTX rides terrible even with Star Kit.

[Roost 'Er]

Background:
2012 Apex XTX, 3000km owned it since 1000km.
Star Rear Suspension Kit, Ohlins Front Shocks.
Last season we constantly were trying new set-ups trying to find that happy medium from changing limiter settings, pre-load on springs, shock adjustment...

This sled is my fathers sled, he absolutely loves the motor and handling however the ride is almost unbearable. After 150-200+ mile days his back is toast. The sled seems to be very abrupt in the rear suspension and bucks driving your tail into the seat. The seat itself also seems like it needs more padding as it feels like your completely compressing the foam and hitting the inner pan. Its not so much even the larger 1' moguls but the sled is jarring on the shutters as well. Overall the sled has been a marginal improvement over his previous sled (Attak GT).,

My question is: Unbiased and honest can this sled ride equivalent to other manufacturers long track sleds such as Pro-S Switchback, R-Motion Renegade or Pro-Cross 137" cat, and if so what does it take.

Our current dilemma:

Spend $3000-4000 (CND Dollar sucks) on a Team Fast M10 W2 144", and possibly Front Shocks, WRP 2" Seat Kit to get this sled to ride.

OR

Cut his loses, sell the sled and unfortunately move to another manufacturer in search of a better riding sled.

I realize the fit and finish on the others is garbage, motors will rattle, shake and vibrate molars loose and we will never find a substitute for the buttery smooth Yamaha mill. But having a sore back at the end of the day takes the enjoyment out of snowmobiling.

 

[JPS]

Are you sure the star is installed properly? I have had star suspension mod on my 2011 for 2 1/2 seasons and mine rides very well. I had the shocks revalved from star and went for the bigger spring on front shock and it handles the 3 inch to 10 inch bumps excellent. I weigh 250 dressed and this was the best mod I have done to the sled. I run my limiter strap all the way out, never pulled it up since the sled has no steering issue running tuner skis with 8 inch carbide. I have a wps seat and lake effect 2.5 riser. fox floats on front with hygear dual pressure res's and overall with these changes this sled rides and handles as good as anything else and better than most that are not properly set up and that accounts for 90% of the sleds in my group which are all 2014-2016 Polaris, doo and cat.

 

[Roost 'Er]

If all the snow has melted off i will take some pictures of the skid. We installed it as per the Star instructions but could have missed something along the way.

 

[BIG BLACK WARRIOR]

Cut your losses and buy a pro-S 800 Switchback.

 

[whitedust1]

Are you in the junk most of the time or only 10-15%? If in the junk a lot get the airwave forget OEM skids.

 

[ranger1]

I installed the star kit as well & found that it rides waaaay better than stock, it still isn't as plush as the R-motion or the new Poos. Would I jump ship because of this, not a fricken chance! Too many things I love about this sled as compared to the other brands. I have owned Poo for the most part of my life & never once had any regret switching over to my Apex's
Your dads should ride better than you are describing though....

 

[journeyman]

My UP riding buddy just bought a 2011 xtx with 1140 miles on it. I thought it rode fantastic this past week in Michigan. It has the stock suspension with Simmons Flexi skis.

 

[Redbeard]

I was in the same boat 3 years ago. I love the Apex, but the XTX 144 beat me to pulp!

http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/team-fast-m20-apex-xtx.119161/

 

[Sasquatch]

If he is hitting plastic he is sitting to far back on the trunk, sit more forward. The sled will also ride better if further forward. Because of my knees I sit back a long way on the seat but I have never been beat up by it. If he has the clicker full hard it will ride stiffer. I found the stock XTX suspension to be fine in the rough but beat me up in the studders. With the Star kit I found it to be way more supple and much better in the studders but still able to take bigger hits. I run the clicker in the middle now but before I ran it at 2 clicks from full soft and 3 when carrying baggage. I have the heavier front spring cranked up about 3/4's. I have the front end up a bit from level and limiter all the way loose. Seems to work fine for me.

I don't know how much your dad weighs but if he is a feather weight he could do with softer springs. Getting the shocks revalved to his weight might be a good thing as well.
Give me the sled I'll ride it and love it!

I have a solution for bad bumps, I slow down!

 

[Heffe]

I had the exact same problem as your father.
Background
Had a 2006 apex er with revalved front and rear shocks with aftermarket mono spring. The thing rode fantastic and I proceeded to put over 30000 kms on the machine in total comfort. This past fall I purchased a new 2012 apex xtx and hated the way it rode. I could not compress the rear suspension more than half an inch and it would throw me off the seat on any bump more than 6inches. In desperation after reading many posts about the star kit, I put one on my sled hoping it would help. I did not get my shocks revalved but did get the heavier front spring.
Unfortunately the machine still rode like a brick. When sitting on the machine i could not compress the rear suspension More than one inch. The back end sat up so high it put too much weight on the skis. I ended up taking the stock torsion springs off and putting on the optional 1100 nm springs from yamaha.
What an improvement. I now have 4 to 5 inches of sit in on the rear suspension and the sled is level when riding it. Handling is vastly improved also. It rides close to what my my mono used too so I'm happy.However it will bottom out easily on bigger bumps but absorbs the small chop nicely. Hoping to get the shock revalved in the summer and get the torsion spring blocks that have the higher settings on them and I should be done with it.
By the way I weigh 220 and the stock springs should have worked for me but it didn't. I run the clicker on 2 up from hard and springs on highest setting. Front spring tightened to middle of threads on shock.
Sled transfers awesome but from rolling start at 20kmh and nailing it, it rocks back in the suspension and only picks skis off the ground 2 to 4 inches and hooks up great. 171 studs up middle.
Sorry for the long winded post but I hope this helps you.
If only we could get more snow.
Cheers.

 

[Sasquatch]

I had the exact same problem as your father.
Background
Had a 2006 apex er with revalved front and rear shocks with aftermarket mono spring. The thing rode fantastic and I proceeded to put over 30000 kms on the machine in total comfort. This past fall I purchased a new 2012 apex xtx and hated the way it rode. I could not compress the rear suspension more than half an inch and it would throw me off the seat on any bump more than 6inches. In desperation after reading many posts about the star kit, I put one on my sled hoping it would help. I did not get my shocks revalved but did get the heavier front spring.
Unfortunately the machine still rode like a brick. When sitting on the machine i could not compress the rear suspension More than one inch. The back end sat up so high it put too much weight on the skis. I ended up taking the stock torsion springs off and putting on the optional 1100 nm springs from yamaha.
What an improvement. I now have 4 to 5 inches of sit in on the rear suspension and the sled is level when riding it. Handling is vastly improved also. It rides close to what my my mono used too so I'm happy.However it will bottom out easily on bigger bumps but absorbs the small chop nicely. Hoping to get the shock revalved in the summer and get the torsion spring blocks that have the higher settings on them and I should be done with it.
By the way I weigh 220 and the stock springs should have worked for me but it didn't. I run the clicker on 2 up from hard and springs on highest setting. Front spring tightened to middle of threads on shock.
Sled transfers awesome but from rolling start at 20kmh and nailing it, it rocks back in the suspension and only picks skis off the ground 2 to 4 inches and hooks up great. 171 studs up middle.
Sorry for the long winded post but I hope this helps you.
If only we could get more snow.
Cheers.

Ya I'm well over 300pds and the stock spring works with the Star 5 position block!

 

[fast n furious]

I must say I totally agree on how hard it is on the back. Mine is boosted and I love the power etc but I'm beet up all the time. Even spent coin on star kit and Elka shocks all the way around. Still kills me. I ran the wife's viper this weekend and it's so much easier on the back. No where near the yamaha quality but it doesn't kill your back. Not sure an apex can ever eat bumps the same. I would love to find the solution

 

[Roost 'Er]

THANKS for the input ! Lots of great suggestion and input.

Cut your losses and buy a pro-S 800 Switchback.

That's the Sled he is thinking of if we go that route.

Are you in the junk most of the time or only 10-15%? If in the junk a lot get the airwave forget OEM skids.

This year is a bit of an anomaly as anywhere with snow has been bombarded with traffic beating the trails up. Typically we have days that are perfectly smooth and others that are rough, probably a 75% smooth, 25% rough mix over the course of a 2500-3000mile season.

My UP riding buddy just bought a 2011 xtx with 1140 miles on it. I thought it rode fantastic this past week in Michigan. It has the stock suspension with Simmons Flexi skis.

I ride Pro-Cross XF 137" Cats, and the XTX in stock form lacks greatly compared to my Cats. The motor and handling of the Apex with Curve XS skis are great its just the ride that's lacking.

I was in the same boat 3 years ago. I love the Apex, but the XTX 144 beat me to pulp!

http://www.ty4stroke.com/threads/team-fast-m20-apex-xtx.119161/

WOW!!! Amazing thread, I was discussing this with him the other day that a track swap and 136" may be an option as the W2 is more Mountain Derived.

My last primary sled that was a Yamaha was my 2000 SRX that we put a Polaris XCSP skid, that was no where near as involved as your thread though, I think I would think about Fast's Coil Over set up as opposed to the air system to ease installation and maintenance but its still a huge expense.

If he is hitting plastic he is sitting to far back on the trunk, sit more forward. The sled will also ride better if further forward. Because of my knees I sit back a long way on the seat but I have never been beat up by it. If he has the clicker full hard it will ride stiffer. I found the stock XTX suspension to be fine in the rough but beat me up in the studders. With the Star kit I found it to be way more supple and much better in the studders but still able to take bigger hits. I run the clicker in the middle now but before I ran it at 2 clicks from full soft and 3 when carrying baggage. I have the heavier front spring cranked up about 3/4's. I have the front end up a bit from level and limiter all the way loose. Seems to work fine for me.

I don't know how much your dad weighs but if he is a feather weight he could do with softer springs. Getting the shocks revalved to his weight might be a good thing as well.
Give me the sled I'll ride it and love it!

I have a solution for bad bumps, I slow down!

Id say he weighs between 185-195, we have tried many different adjustment and seating positions, but we have not revalved shocks yet, so that may be an option

I had the exact same problem as your father.
Background
Had a 2006 apex er with revalved front and rear shocks with aftermarket mono spring. The thing rode fantastic and I proceeded to put over 30000 kms on the machine in total comfort. This past fall I purchased a new 2012 apex xtx and hated the way it rode. I could not compress the rear suspension more than half an inch and it would throw me off the seat on any bump more than 6inches. In desperation after reading many posts about the star kit, I put one on my sled hoping it would help. I did not get my shocks revalved but did get the heavier front spring.
Unfortunately the machine still rode like a brick. When sitting on the machine i could not compress the rear suspension More than one inch. The back end sat up so high it put too much weight on the skis. I ended up taking the stock torsion springs off and putting on the optional 1100 nm springs from yamaha.
What an improvement. I now have 4 to 5 inches of sit in on the rear suspension and the sled is level when riding it. Handling is vastly improved also. It rides close to what my my mono used too so I'm happy.However it will bottom out easily on bigger bumps but absorbs the small chop nicely. Hoping to get the shock revalved in the summer and get the torsion spring blocks that have the higher settings on them and I should be done with it.
By the way I weigh 220 and the stock springs should have worked for me but it didn't. I run the clicker on 2 up from hard and springs on highest setting. Front spring tightened to middle of threads on shock.
Sled transfers awesome but from rolling start at 20kmh and nailing it, it rocks back in the suspension and only picks skis off the ground 2 to 4 inches and hooks up great. 171 studs up middle.
Sorry for the long winded post but I hope this helps you.
If only we could get more snow.
Cheers.

Ill have to measure the sag next time but I think the sled sags quite a bit when he sits on it, thanks your for experience ill take a look into springs.

 

[DGZRT]

You might call Hygear and find out if they have a Dual rate springs for the shocks. I ride the Mono shock rear and a dual rate spring was the way to go. I'm guessing, but you should be able to get the shocks rebuilt and have the dual rate springs for around $1000

 

[Redbeard]

I would think about Fast's Coil Over set up as opposed to the air system to ease installation and maintenance but its still a huge expense.

As far the installation of an M20 goes, 95% of what I did to my sled wasn't necessary. I purchased and installed mine post winter, so I had 9 months to tinker and experiment with an air compressor and electric solenoids to operate the air springs. Maintenance wise, I've yet to put a wrench on this skid! I have literally beat the tar out of this thing and it keeps going! After this last trip, however, I can tell it's time to send the shocks in for a re-fresh this summer; it's still leaps and bounds more comfortable than the stock 144 skid...Hands down!!

I've never had the opportunity to ride an AD Boivin ZX2 skid. It's my understanding that they'll take severe punishment all day, while having spine-friendly manners at the same time! I've heard nothing but good about these skids! Unfortunately, I think they are no longer in production.

Let us know what you decide? If you opt for a skid swap, post your work.