Solenoid, starter relay.....something else?????

[ranger1]

Went out after work tonight, 11:00p.m to try & see if the starter wouldn't work......of course it did, it's just waiting to crap out on me when I am just leaving for a ride, lol!!!
I have been thinking, most of the times it did not work was the next day or so prior to running in deep powder. Can these relays be moisture sensitive? When I pointed the heat gun towards the starter the other day the starter miraculously worked! Could that just have been a coincidence as like steiner said, the relay is right by the starter so maybe I was drying the relay out by accident, lol!

 

[maim]

Possible. Mine throws an intake sensor code every time it does some serious powder riding. I thaw it out and it is fine. Looking to put Outerwears or frog skins on it to help with it.

 

[ranger1]

So buying a new relay might not help then? These units not sealed properly or is the moister affecting the contact points?

 

[steiner]

Mine threw code 11 when it did not start. Changed the starter and no codes. The ECU sees all the correct voltage when in crank but the engine sensors do not see the engine turning over thus thowing a code.

The relay itself is sealed. The fuses attached to it and the connector that plugs in to it are not. The fuse holder can be removed from the relay. I put a Nytro relay on an Apex 2 weeks ago. The only difference is how the fuses where laid out.
Temp can make a difference on a bad connection but not always.
Intermitent electrical issues can cause one to lose their sanity.

 

[ranger1]

Mine threw code 11 when it did not start. Changed the starter and no codes. The ECU sees all the correct voltage when in crank but the engine sensors do not see the engine turning over thus thowing a code.

The relay itself is sealed. The fuses attached to it and the connector that plugs in to it are not. The fuse holder can be removed from the relay. I put a Nytro relay on an Apex 2 weeks ago. The only difference is how the fuses where laid out.
Temp can make a difference on a bad connection but not always.
Intermitent electrical issues can cause one to lose their sanity.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrraaaaarrraaaa.........don't worry, I lost my sanity a lonnnnng time ago, lmao.
p.s, I never get any codes when the starter doesn't engage, not sure if that info helps any, lol

 

[steiner]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaarrrraaaaarrraaaa.........don't worry, I lost my sanity a lonnnnng time ago, lmao.
p.s, I never get any codes when the starter doesn't engage, not sure if that info helps any, lol

Only threw the code once out of twenty or so attempted starts.
So ,No is does not help.

I would replace the starter relay and clean up them connections. The relay is cheap enough and makes a good spare if its not the issue.

 

[Tim47]

Mine was intermittently not starting. The guages lit up cleanly with no errors but turn the key and nothing. Sometimes if I held it for 5-6 seconds it would catch and start, but I was always able to eventually get it to start. I just worried about being 40 miles from a road when it finally died permanently.

Another member, sleddog66, had the same issues and suggested I replace the relay. I got the part and swapped it last weekend. The old relay had corrosion on it as well as the white connector to it, so I suspect that was it. It's started fine since although I haven't really had a chance to ride it (next weekend).

 

[rx1pat]

Carry a long needle nosed plier with you. Familiarize yourself on how the starter relay works. The 2 larger wires connect inside the relay to power the starter. When it does not start jump these 2 wires together with the pliers on the terminals thus bypassing the relay to crank the starter. This can be done by just removing the side cover. Been ther, dun that.
If that does not get the starter to crank, take a long screwdriver and tap the starter while holding the key in the "crank" position. If the starter cranks then its either the brushes or armature. Again, been ther dun that.
To determine whether its the brushes or armature you need to remove the starter.

Had to do this a last month on my 04 RX-1. Just clicked when I turned the key. Put a screwdriver on the solenoid and the starter cranked over. Ran fine the rest of the day and no other problems this year. I'm guessing moisture somewhere in the connection. I bought a spare solenoid to be safe and keep it in my trunk.

 

[ranger1]

Carry a long needle nosed plier with you. Familiarize yourself on how the starter relay works. The 2 larger wires connect inside the relay to power the starter. When it does not start jump these 2 wires together with the pliers on the terminals thus bypassing the relay to crank the starter. This can be done by just removing the side cover. Been ther, dun that.
If that does not get the starter to crank, take a long screwdriver and tap the starter while holding the key in the "crank" position. If the starter cranks then its either the brushes or armature. Again, been ther dun that.
To determine whether its the brushes or armature you need to remove the starter.

Had to do this a last month on my 04 RX-1. Just clicked when I turned the key. Put a screwdriver on the solenoid and the starter cranked over. Ran fine the rest of the day and no other problems this year. I'm guessing moisture somewhere in the connection. I bought a spare solenoid to be safe and keep it in my trunk.

The next time it just does the click thing, I will try bypassing the starter, if it works, I will be buying a new relay & installing it ASAP

 

[sleddog66]

Just did mine....it was a starter relay that is next to the battery. As suggested in an above post, Rocks "starter saver" light helped me diagnose because no power was going past the relay when it acted up(so no light while cranking). good luck. Oh ya....$45.00 for a new relay.

 

[ranger1]

Carry a long needle nosed plier with you. Familiarize yourself on how the starter relay works. The 2 larger wires connect inside the relay to power the starter. When it does not start jump these 2 wires together with the pliers on the terminals thus bypassing the relay to crank the starter. This can be done by just removing the side cover. Been ther, dun that.
If that does not get the starter to crank, take a long screwdriver and tap the starter while holding the key in the "crank" position. If the starter cranks then its either the brushes or armature. Again, been ther dun that.
To determine whether its the brushes or armature you need to remove the starter.

Ok, went to randomly try to start the sled tonight & .....click, the starter did not engage! Bypassed the relay per your instructions, (couldn't see the in coming lead from the battery to the relay so I went from the positive from the battery to the lead going to the starter), it engaged the starter!!!! Ordering a relay on Monday, thanks Steiner & to everyone else

 

[steiner]

Ok, went to randomly try to start the sled tonight & .....click, the starter did not engage! Bypassed the relay per your instructions, (couldn't see the in coming lead from the battery to the relay so I went from the positive from the battery to the lead going to the starter), it engaged the starter!!!! Ordering a relay on Monday, thanks Steiner & to everyone else

Good to know you found the issue. When installin the new relay make sure you clean the terminals in the white connector and pack it full of dielectric grease.
This will help prevent it from corrosion .

 

[ranger1]

Thanks Steiner but not quite sure using Dieletric grease on a relay is such a good idea, this will explain what I mean

A lot of people use dielectric grease on connectors. Some people mistakenly believe that dieletric grease is a conductor. In fact, it is just the opposite; it is an insulator. Dielectric grease is typically made of silicone grease.

As an insulator, dielectric grease is good for use on spark plug boots. This was one of the original applications on vehicles when the high-energy ignition systems came out. It can help insulate the connector and, in particular on a motorcycle where it can get wet, it waterproofs the spark plug boot. And, because it is silicone, it is fairly stable at high temperatures and won't affect the rubber and plastics.

So why would you put an insulator on a connector? The idea is that you use a thin layer. When you push the connector together the grease is pushed out of the way enough to get a connection and the surrounding grease then keeps out water and oxygen. The connector will be protected from the environment and less likely to corrode. Plus, the silicone is safe for the plastics and PVC insulation.

 

[ranger1]

First, silicone grease outgases constantly. If the silicone gas gets near a connector or a contact, such as a relay, and there is a spark, the spark at the contact can create silicon dioxide. Some people even suggest that the silicone gas from dielectric grease can travel many feet through the unsulation on a wire and damage a contact on the other end. Omron states that even their sealed switches can be damaged by nearby silicone grease outgassing. Reference the following links for more info:

Second, it is an insulator. It can prevent contacts from touching. If you do use it, use a very thin layer.

Third, if you have a corroded connection, silicone grease will not help. In fact, it may make it worse. It can never improve anything. Dielectric grease will never make a poor connection better.

Fourth, it attracts dust and dirt and it hardens over time. This means that if you smear a lot of silicone grease on connectors you may see nearby relays, switches, or points fail later on. Since silicone grease does nothing at all to improve the connection and, in fact, may insulate the contacts in the connector increasing the resistance the connector may still fail.

So what do you do? Look for a contact enhancer/lube. While most contact cleaners are simple solvents that just wash the connector off there are contact enhancers that deoxidize the contact surface and actually work to lower the contact resistance (make a better connection). Most contact enhancers leave a lubricant behind that protects the metal and continue to deoxidize the metal and improve the connection. They can work to lower the resistance and make a better contact as time goes by. The best you can hope for from dielectric grease is that it seals it enough to not get worse. I have used Caig Deoxit on my bikes for a few years now. I first found out about this on my job when I had to correct an issue in a connector system that could not tolerate even 5 thousandths of an ohm of resistance drift. We had a connector in the field that had been improperly plated and was starting to drift, mostly in warm humid areas like Florida. Our testing showed that the Caig Deoxit could be a good long-term fix. We ended up using the Deoxit to stabilize the bad units until we could get corrected wiring harnesses built with the correct connectors. We also put a layer of Deoxit on the new parts to protect and keep them clean over their lifetime. This solved the drift issue that we had

 

[steiner]

WOW! I never knew the dielectric grease was soo bad.

Many moons ago when I was A GM tech they used to provide a dielectric grease with the electronic dist. modules.
I faithully used this when replacing these modules. Never saw any ill effect from it. But in my defense these types of dist. equiped vehicles are no longer on the road. They died out with the carburator equiped cars.
Also used dielectric the fix GM's unbelievably wise decission to ground the ECM at the thermostat housing. Talk about corrosion.

Well this summer while doing my yearly maintianence on the sled I will be cleaning off the dielectric grease and replacing it with a better product.
The yamaha engineer that came up with this idea of a non weatherproof connector installed so that it could capture and hold moisture was not using his many years of schooling I guess.
The same thot process was also applied to those pesky non weatherproof ground blocks we have on our sleds that can cause alot of unwanted electrical issues.

Thanks for the info on the dielctric grease.